97% in exam but only Level 4B. Is dd being stretched?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I know that MFL levels are expected to be lower in languages to reflect the fact that many children are starting from scratch.

Dd had done a bit of French at primary. They started it in reception but in Yr 4 switched to a languages carousel (1 term each of French, German & Spanish taught by a specialist MFL teacher) She has been attending a lunchtime French club too b

Her report has just come & she got 97% in her exam (didn't give a break down but they did speaking, writing & listening papers). She got a Level 4b

Her other subjects are all Level 5 & 6. I just wonder if she's finding it too easy? The teacher is leaving I think & I guess she'll have a new one next year.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Oops I was mistaken. She has been given a 4a.

[AtiaoftheJulii]

It will be lower than the others just because of what is required for each level at MFL - I don't know the details, but e.g. part of it might be using 2 tenses for a level 5, 3 tenses for a 6. She's obviously grasped the y7 work well, but they just won't have been taught enough to enable the teacher to tick off anything higher.

[titchy]

You'd have to ask your dd if she feels she's being stretched.

Assuming she's year 7 and a lot of kids in her class won't have done any French before, the exam was presumably graded level 2/3 to level 4. They won't have been taught any level 5 stuff (they need to know a second tense for L5 and a third tense for L6) so there wouldn't have been much point setting an exam on stuff none of them had been taught.

[summerends]

I don't want to 'dis' (sorry too much time with teenagers ) MFL teachers generally but IM (limited)E MFL teachers don't seem to be proactive in teaching different levels for mixed ability classes in the lower years of state secondary school. I know of bilingual DC who have been given the same level as complete beginners with -no- little effort to stretch them either during the year or in tests.

[fourcorneredcircle]

Hello, MFL teacher here... 4a is above average for the end of year seen. Most schools don't teach other than some 'stock' phrase future tense (eg I would like) in Y7 because evidence and experience tells us that it's too much too soon. They will do much better in the long run if they focus on the basics (word order, adjectival agreement, numbers and spelling rules as well as amassing vocabulary). I assure you that there is a hell of a lot of differentitaion goes on in good lessons (for example in one of my year nine classes this year i have had targets rangin from high threes o low eights). I'm sorry that it seems your friends children aren't being catered for properly but I assure you, most teachers would.

[clary]

If she's in year 7 and achieved a genuine 4a in a written exam (a true test of ability/knowledge IMO as you can't guess like a multiple choice) then she is ahead of any student I teach - and I had 6 year 7 classes this year.

I gave them all a written test in the last 2/3 weeks of term and my highest grade was 4b. I may mark a bit harder than your DD's teacher, it is a bit subjective, but what I am saying is that 4a is excellent for end of year 7.

We don't even teach other tenses (ie past or future) in yr 7 which is what you need for L5. She will jump up to a good L6 and beyond in the next year or so I would expect.

[clary]

Agree with fourcorneredcircle, if MFL teachers pile in with past tense or even future it can be a bit much for students.

A student can be well stretched and the language embedded with work on phonics and pronunciation, spontaneous use of target language and using opinions and reason in their work without adding the tenses at this stage. IMHO.

[summerends]

Fourconeredcircle I am sure some MFL teachers do manage differentiation and I 'm not saying it is easy in a mixed ability class of 30. Again just commenting on what I have observed, the differentiation seems to be based on the standard work the student is supposed to produce in homework or class rather than different level teaching

[MrsZiegler]

dd came out of year 7 with 4a for French which she hadn't done before. She was told that to get higher levels she'd need to 'do tenses' which they didn't teach in year 7 but she could do extension work if she wanted to (she didn't!). In year 8 she got a 6c for French & for German which they started at the beginning of year 8.

Out of interest - is German easier to get higher levels?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I think there was a written exam as part ofvthe tests. (Done under formal exam conditions they did speaking, writing, listening & something else)

I'm very new to levels as her previous junior school didn't use them & she didn't do SATS so I've spent the last year working out what they all mean.

It surprised me as she had previously considered herself not to like & not to be good at French. But now she loves it.

I'm of the opinion that languages are important.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Also I don't want to be pushy but she turned down a place at an academically selective school to go here so I want to make sure she is reaching her potential still.

[fourcorneredcircle]

summerends I didn't realise you were a teacher that had observed MFL lessons in class. Your first post implied that you had limited experience and were going off what you'd seen in your children's books/friends comments so I'd rather assumed you were a concerned parent unless of course you are and have no experience of teaching-. Perhaps you haven't had the chance to observe some great MFL teaching yet - feel free to come and see my department.

[fourcorneredcircle]

picturesinthefirelight I hope what I and other MFL teachers have said have helped a little? I promise you, 4A is good - bear in mind that that wil have included a range of opinions, several conjugated verbs, correctly applies adjectival rules and a range of vocabulary well above average - and all from memory (not even a dictionary!) to boot. Your daughter is doing very well. MFL's are a bit of a special case when it comes to levelling (many other secsubjects don't even have anything below a L3).

[fourcorneredcircle]

Bother, posted too soon. Was also going to ask whether you knew her end of KS3 target? I imagine 6a/7c? Which means her KS4 target could be a C/B/A... The fact that MFLs are hard is taken in to account by the transition matrix giving a target one grade below the other agregate grades. often it comes down to attitude in MFL as to whether they do well - if she loves it, she'll do well because she will want to build vocabulary and will enjoy trying to say new things. I hope that helps put your mind at ease too?

[summerends]

Fourcornered your defensiveness does you no credit, particularly as I have pointed out that my experience is limited and anecdotal (as a bilingual with bilingual friends) and acknowledge that there may be differences in practice which include you.
Unfortunately it is that sort of defensiveness which makes open communication between parents and teachers sometimes such a struggle.
Picture my anecdotal limited but still true experience includes superselective state schools. MFL GCSE is also of limited linguistic value.

[fourcorneredcircle]

But as a bilingual person with bilingual children and friends your experience is somewhat outside the normal? No? And irrelevant to the posters Question... I'm only defensive because you tarred us all with the same brush. I think we can probably agree that the current GCSE format has its limitations if I can offer an olive branch?

[summerends]

Fourcornered if you reread my posts without being defensive you should see that I am careful not to make generalisations, how can I unless I had firsthand experience of every school. Bilingual DC as you know may be an extreme but still need help and are easier to teach differentially. If such children can only achieve the lower levels by the nature of the testing at the end of year tests then there is something wrong with the system (again only anecdotal experience ). That must also apply to non bilingual DC.

[fourcorneredcircle]

I suppose that there are three possible reasons here for bilingual children having low levels;

1. The school didn't given them an apprppriate test (or teach them appropriately)* - in which case a score of 100% would be achieved.
   
2. the children while able to converse at a bilingual level had significant weaknesses in their written/read level because either they had never had to read/write in their other language (happens surprisingly frequently!) or had literary issues (unlikely in your case as its a super selective school).
   
3. bilingual children (especially at the lower end of KS3) often struggle to answer what is necessary for the test - particularly in speaking/writing. They go off at a tangent (because they can) and simply don't answer the question!
   
   The last reason is why many students don't get entered for GCSE's early in key stage three for languages, even if they are bilingual. They have to have the maturity to 'hit' the grade pointers and understand why they have to.
   
   It's actually surprisingly difficult to teach bilingual children in their normal classes because whilst ou can give them appropriate reading/writing tasks and 'keep them quiet' you can't show much progression that way. In while class or group work situations they tend to take over (again, because they can but don't have the maturity to know how to do it appropriately) and don't let others get a chance.
   
   I would love to be able to teach the one bilingual child I come up against for French/Spanish/German individually but it's so infrequent that it will never be funded.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Yes thank you, it has been useful.

[summerends]

Fourcornered I completely agree with your analysis including that covering 'false' bilinguals. In the cases I know it came under (1) but for some, category (2) might have applied if they had been stretched in the test since they were not differentially taught
False bilinguals who are bright but need teaching grammar and written work are most equivalent to talented linguists. They need teaching but are capable of much higher levels of written work faster than other DC.
I personally don't see the point necessarily of taking GCSE early but certainly quiet working through exercises with harder grammar and comprehension is feasible for example using lower level native language school texts.

[fourcorneredcircle]

quiet working through exercises with harder grammar and comprehension is feasible for example using lower level native language school texts

Absolutely agree. It can be difficult finding age appropriate texts though so quite often they have to be created from scratch - I've taught student before that would require an entire lesson planed just for them and there just aren't enough hours in the day!

I also find the idea of quiet working alone for upto three hours a week quite difficult. Imagine if I did that for the child with a level 2 target student! The masses (quite rightly so) would be up in arms about little Johnny working alone in the corner all the time unpalatable.

It's hard to strike a happy balance. With senior students they have the maturity to work almost like a TA for some of the lesson (for example doing speaking activities) but I'm sure you can imagine the chaos that putting a 12 year old in the same position would cause! :)

[summerends]

This is off topic a bit but TBH fourcorned bilingual DC will be bored and potentially disruptive or, if they are trying to be helpful, 'take over' if not given differential work. As I said before it must be very hard in a class of 30 which is why they have to learn quietly but be helped with appropriate marking of exercises. I accept that some DC will be disruptive whatever and unable to work quietly but that must be a general problem in all lessons.
Many of their parents would be happy to provide or share appropriate level texts such as those from the CNED (usually at a level of couple of years lower). MFL teachers might even find some of these materials would be useful for other able children to stretch them.
Parents would appreciate that those 2-3 hours a week were n't completely wasted and their DC would be furthering their grammatical and written skills at school. They would also realise that this progress was n't easily measurable by the English system.
It obviously depends on where you teach but some areas have more European bilingual children than others.
Streaming and smaller class sizes seems to help MFL teachers make this less of an issue in selective private schools.

[BalloonSlayer]

Ooh I know the answer to this. DD is doing really well in French but the teacher said that she won't get any higher than 4a because she hasn't been taught the perfect tense yet, and until you use it you can't go above 4a.