Views on secondary schools for girls: issues with single sex school and boarding schools

[kris123]

DanZZ asked about my views on my DDs secondary education.

As I received many great responses from various parents on other threads, I feel almost obliged to answer you on this topic.

In summary

My DDs are in state primary, and will hopefully go to mixed state grammar, followed by university.

If they will however only go to single sex grammar (easier to get in, more of them), then I will think of changing a school for them at 16+ level to mixed grammar, mixed private or even mixed boarding school, finances permitting.

Importantly, when it comes to DD I have a strong preference for mixed schools at 16 - 18 level (though I am aware of statistic that girls perform better in single sex environment) as I feel that the journey into adulthood is best if it is gradual. The same would be true for boys, but somehow I feel that for girls this is of the higher importance than for boys (who nicely catch up at university). For instance, number of very smart career girls I know who went to top single sex boarding schools told me that they will not repeat this experience for their DDs, as despite the excellent education they received, they were not prepared to meet the boys for the first time at the university lecture hall. It was almost a shock for them.


As to boarding... i have no problem with it for girls per se, indeed I would prefer it for the girls too, but I fear that due to dominance of single sex schools in this country, the sacrifice made in academic quality in order to be in the mixed boarding school will outweight the boarding benefits with respect to that of the grammar school.

In some way, especially when your DD or DS is boarding, you want them to be surrounded by smart kids with similar academic ethos and career goals.

DanZZ, what route are you thinking of for your DD? I could be wrong with my view, so I would also appreciate any constructive criticism to my way of thinking.

[DontLetTinselDragOnTheFloor]

my DD (bear in mind she is only 4!) is at a stat primary, as was DS1 and as is DS2. She is most likely to go to single sex grammar or single sex private as they are the best options here.

Absolutely no way am I sending her (or her brothers) to board.

There will be the option for her to do her sixth form years at DS1s single sex private as they are admitting girls into 6th form from September 2011.

I have no issues with a single sex education.

[DontLetTinselDragOnTheFloor]

"they were not prepared to meet the boys for the first time at the university lecture hall."

With two brothers and all their friends, I don't think this would be an issue for DD. I will not send her to board though, which makes a difference.

[mummytime]

One of the loveliest schools I came across once is in the USA and mixed. However for the middle school years (roughly 7-9) they have two parallel single sex schools (separated physically on the campus). They do this as these are the years that boys and girls are the most different, and also are for example interested in very different books. They are then fully co-educational in High school (roughly 10- upper sixth). It sounded quite sensible to me.

[sue52]

My DD is at a single sex grammar in west kent. She is doing well, all her predictions/targets are A*/A. I do however have reservations about the competitive nature of the school which spills out to all areas of her life. There are girls there who stress about weight, appearance, clothes etc to a ridiculous level.
She does meet boys. Most school around here are single sex and the town turns into a giant youth club at the end of the school day. Her currant boyfriend attends a prestigious public school, the grammar school kids and public school lot socialise quite freely together.
DD will be attending a coed boarding school either public or state. We did this for my elder DD she had a great time and DD2 is looking forward to boarding in the 6th form.
She is surrounded by highly intelligent girls at grammar school who go on to excellent universities but a coed school just seems more chilled out.

[EvilTwinsAteRudolph]

I've read your other thread. I am astounded that you are happy with state grammar for your daughters, whilst Eton and only Eton will do for your son.

Bet they thank you for that in the future.

[kris123]

Thanks for your responses. I guess that for day school you are right, there is a boys world outside of the classroom. This is however not so much the case for boarding schools (unless holidays).

ANY MUMS CAN SPEAK FROM OWN EXPERIENCE OF ATTENDING A SINGLE SEX BOARDING SCHOOL VS THE MIXED ONE? WILL YOU SEND YOUR DDs TO SINGLE SEX BOARDING SCHOOLS TOO? THANKS.

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EvilTwins,

Perhaps i will change my mind later. Which school is in your view "Eton for girls"? Pls note that I would like my girls to be in coed school between ages 16-18. Maybe I will change my viewpoint later, but at the moment I think that such environment is socially better for girls in the long run (even if academically inferior).

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Sue52,

I am afraid that girls are likely to be even more competitive in co-ed schools, with weight issues, make up, who dates whom business etc. 2011. Its part of life though, and I think that it will be easier for me as a parent to deal with these issues (to basically make DDs immune from them) when they are 17 under home or school supervision, rather than when they are 19 at university in Scotland. Hence my preference for co-ed school expressed earlier on.

[EvilTwinsAteRudolph]

"Eton for girls"?? Dunno - Cheltenham Ladies?

I just think that your attitude to your DD's education stinks. Why is it so important that your son is given the opportunity to attend a top independent school whilst your ddaughters should make do with state? Why do you value your son's education so much more than that of your daughters?

[sue52]

Eton for girls- Benenden or Roedean.
I wouldn't send my DD to either but they do have that Etonish reputation.

[goinggetstough]

Or maybe Downe House or Wycombe Abbey?

[kris123]

EvilTwins, this is not the case, believe me.

You need to break away from private state divide to see what i mean. I believe that state schools, albeit free, can be excellent too, and in the world of girls education, not that I know much about it (hence the original post), I feel that that the private / state divide is much smaller than in the world of boys education - hence the decisions.

I was clear that I cannot spend money on B type school for my DS. The same logic applies to my DDs (assuming i have any money left). Bascially I will not go private just to go private. I need a right school for them. Eton happens to be a right school for my DS. WIll Benenden, Roedean or Cheltenham Ladies (all single sex) be a right school for my girls, whom I would prefer to attend mixed school for reason mentioned earlier, i am not sure, maybe not.

Marlborough is mixed, but is it of high enough academic merit?

A day grammar. mixed or single, with boyfriend after school seems perfectly reasonable combination I think.

[kris123]

Kingsroadie, thanks for that. It kind of confirms what my friends told me too.

Which school did you go to?

So your school and Marlborough are the two mixed boarding schools you would recommend. Any others?

[notcitrus]

I went to one of the mentioned girls single-sex boarding schools.
While yes, there was an epidemic of eating disorders, I think the same girls would have had them at any school, with the perceived pressure from parents.

Also from age 13 we had increasing amounts of contact with nearby boys schools - joint choirs, some drama, some trips, and the cringemaking dances. And from the end of year 10 you could go out into town quite a lot, particularly in sixth form.

Lots of my friends did leave to go to mixed sixth forms, but many found it hard to adapt to a new school for two years (a sixth form college would be easier than a school which expected everyone to know how things were done), as well as having to deal with not-very-grown-up boys' sexism. I made some male friends at another school and acquired more amusing anecdotes from more cringemaking dances!

Personally I decided to have a year out before uni and worked on a 95% male programme, which was certainly a contrast but not a problem at all. In some ways the pressure to have a boyfriend was off at the all-girl school as you could always use the excuse you didn't know any except the ones through choir etc.

Some of the lads I met on my gap year, though, had been to very sheltered boys' schools and really never talked to girls before. However this usually meant they treated me as a 'person' and wasn't a bad thing.

WHile I have no reason or the money to send my kids private or to board, the lack or presence of the other sex really wouldn't be a factor. The possibly stereotyped education (maths A-level was discouraged if you weren't Chinese; design and tech facilities were way behind those of a local comp) would be.

[EvilTwinsAteRudolph]

"I believe that state schools, albeit free, can be excellent too". Yup, me too. Even for boys.

How are you going to deal with the inevitable "Mum, how come you spend thousands of pounds on our brother's education and nothing at all on ours"?? Conversations?

I think your logic is screwy, and that you are going to end up with daughters who feel that you don't value them as much as their brother (to the tune of £30,000 per year)

I am not a believer in private education, but do at least see that the only fair thing to do is to be consistent - one or the other for all your children, surely.

[Kingsroadie]

*Kris" - Sevenoaks. It was the first school to go all IB and is fairly international in the 6th form (if that makes any difference to you), as I believe most boarding schools are these days - but Sevenoaks had a rep for being very international. Another one I would consider is Rugby (and, depending on how academically focused you are there are others such as Uppingham and Repton, St Edwards (Teddys), Canford, Cranleigh, Wellington which are mixed but don't perfom quite as well in the league tables). However, we live in London so would be looking at the Southern ones only and would be fairly keen on academia - providing there is also good all-round sports/music/drama etc. (Hilariously my daughter is only one - yes I am a loser - some of the boys schools though still have a register at birth, although perhaps Radley is the only one now). Really for us it's between Sevenoaks and Malborough.

Notcitrus - interesting. And particularly re not being as much pressure to have a boyfriend - that's a good point! Must also depend on the amount of contact and events organised by the school with boys' schools - that must vary massively. Also the fact that some friends of yours struggled to adapt to a mixed sixth form.

[GoldFrakkincenseAndMyrrh]

I'm for single sex education in general based on my personal experience and that of family and friends. Boarding didn't suit me personally - I found it very restrictive and there wasn't enough music practice time allocated. At my single sex day school (Indy) there were no more eating disorders or anything than at comparable boarding schools. High achieving schools do put a lot of pressure on and issues such as eating disorders are a very unfortunate symptom of that. Being coed might mitigate that but it can cause other problems. Yes, girls schools can create a bitchy culture, but the school needs to be proactive in recognising and dealing with that. Boys schools can be bullying hotspots too in even worse ways.

Personally I wouldn't have done well in a mixed environment. My sister's grades dropped when she went from single sex to mixed, as did my brother's (albeit less drastically). That may also have been due to going from indy to state but they went from 'second rate' indy schools to a very highly rated grammar.

The shock of moving to coed to 6th form for some people affects their grades. It's not a transition I would like my DC to make at such an important educational point. In fact I want to avoid any movements at all for 6th form. Y10 is my cutoff point and if that means they board or I settle somewhere while DH gets posted around that's something we're prepared for. That said my DC will probably board for continuity (rather than split up the family and tie us to an area) and I will consider single and mixed sex schools based on the child. I will also be looking at both indy and stare schools with boarding facilities.

We all had friends of both sexes outside school. I'm glad it was outside otherwise I'd probably have been very distracted!

Whilst I agree the private/state divide is less pronounced for girls than boys (although it does depend where you are) I don't think it's possible to generalise about the kind of environment that will suit a child, no more than one can say definitively that state is better than indy. Some are good, some are bad in both sectors. I do, however, think it grossly unfair that you're pigeonholing your DDs but giving your DS 'the best'. If he and you want Eton then that's fine, but what happens when your DDs want to go to Wycombe?

[GoldFrakkincenseAndMyrrh]

Kingsroadie - this DC is minus 4 months old and I'm already planning schooling. Mostly from a financial planning POV... Good to hear positives about Sevenoaks from you as it's a coed we're strongly considering (for, yknow, 13/14 years time). IB at secondary is very important to us as it'll make the transition to a UK school easier. I'm avoiding the PYP though, having worked with it. Not that it's relevant as they'll be in French state schools to at least collège anyway but that just makes the international aspect all the more important.

[controlfreakyhohohohohohoho]

you come across as a bit strange op (and i am not referring to the fact that english may not be your first language). eton for ds and state school for your dds?? how is that fair / reasonable? will you be putting £30k pa aside for each of them? you say you don't know much about the choices avalable for girls, yet have ruled out some options for them? you have the resources / time to research options for your ds but not dds? makes you sound ill informed and unfair.

[kris123]

Dds are small, the issue came by another user, there is still time and i am evaluating, very early actually various options (though not as early as some.. congratulations btw). Most of these schools and the system is not that familiar to me.

ControlFreak - your statement assumes that by default private is always better than state. In my judgement not all private is better than the best of state, albeit some will be. Also in the situation where my resources are scarce, and I will need to chose, I will allocate these resources to the child that will gain most, and i think that DS will benefit a lot. It is amazing how many times I repeated this over the past few days.

I take it that for you, and many others, Sevenoaks is by default better than say Wallington Grammar for Girls? You see, I would not send my DS to Sevenoaks over say St Olave's gramamr so actually, I am being fairly consistent here with my views for DS and DDs.

[Greythorne]

kris

you're last statement is incomprehensible to me, please can you explain it further?

I take it that for you, and many others, Sevenoaks is by default better than say Wallington Grammar for Girls? You see, I would not send my DS to Sevenoaks over say St Olave's gramamr so actually, I am being fairly consistent here with my views for DS and DDs.

[controlfreakyhohohohohohoho]

i don't understand your point i'm afraid op. for a start i would have thought that anyone contemplating a school in sevenoaks would be unlikely to also be considering a school in wallington?? or is one boarding? why do you assume i would know this?
if dds are young how can you possibly tell if ds is the one who will most benefit from £30k pa education?? from your posts it seems you don't have same amount of disposable income to lavish on each child so by default you appear to be ruling out spending such sums on expensive and exclusive private education for each of your dds (if it turns out that is what will most benefit them). that has nothing to do with assuming private is better than state, just pointing out you are by default deciding that state will have to be as good as private for your girls (but not for your son). i stand by my earlier comments.

[Greythorne]

kris
you have said several times that you are not completely familiar with the UK education system.
do you know that there are really very, very few areas which continue with state grammar schools?
Many (the majority of LEAs) areas have gone comprehensive, so there is no 11+ exam or grammar school option at all.
Often schools which are called "grammar" are no longer grammars but private, fee paying schools (Manchester Grammar, for example)

Just checking> What area are you in? do you know for sure state grammars are an options for your DDs?

[BrandyButterPie]

I was just about to say this - in the town where I grew up, the school called the "boys grammar" is a non selective state school. It is single sex, but no different in any other way to the high school.

There isn't anywhere that is state and selective round here at all that I know of.