How do I deal with ignorant attitudes at work? (long!)

[Bumperlicious]

I know this should be in employment but it is more about my relationships with my colleagues. I have been back at work for about 9 months now and am battling with attitudes from my team. I got so angry today I went down to welfare and offloaded on them, but I still have more ranting in me so here you go...

1. I expressed at work, which seemed to be fine as long as I didn't mention to my team what I was doing. Today the room I did it in came up in conversation and one of my colleagues said "Nope, no, we can't talk about that." and I was flabergasted and said "why not, we can talk about everything else "Nope, no, I just don't want to think about it. You put it in my head now, it's just not right is it?" and another colleague, a woman piped up "Yeah, I find it pretty disturbing too". Right, but when another colleague told us this joke:
   
   What's the difference between football and rape? Women don't like football.
   
   That was ok, even for this other woman. Even though the teller had caveated it "Oh Bumper's not going to like this one. This is going to really upset you." and proceded to tell it even though I said "well don't say it then." So breastfeeding is taboo (this wasn't the first time he had reacted like this to me mentioning breastfeeding in his presence). Jokes about rape and a ten minute conversation today about Thai ladyboys aren't. Don't get me wrong, I can banter with the best of them, but you don't have to be Mary Whitehouse to find rape jokes offensive.
   
   
2. My boss proclaims the old "we're really flexible, don't worry it's going to take you a long time to get settled back in, we all know that" but doesn't actually seem to allow for this. I have gone back into a completely new new, new type of job, part time, leaving the baby. I've found it overwhelming, and it has affected how quickly I've settled in and my confidence. I tried explaining the to my boss at my half year review basically saying "I don't thing I did as well as I should have for the first few months, I've found it really hard, but I've turned a corner and putting every effort in now." and he said "yeah, you were quite needy to start with?" when I asked what he meant by that he said "well you asked lots of questions, and couldn't really do stuff on your own." supportive huh?
   
   The thing is I don't even know whether I even did that badly under the circumstances. My job is pretty hard, it's fast moving, things change fast, it's a huge organisation and I was away for nearly a year. Everyone acknowledges that it takes you about 6 months to settle into a new role (we move as a rule every few years) and it's even harder part time. And now I feel that he won't even recognise when I am trying because he has me pegged as needy and doesn't understand (or even try to) the reasons why I found things difficult.
   
   
3. We've been having some problems with DH's work which meant he was forced to leave (they wouldn't let him work PT any longer and we shared care of DD). My work were very good (corporately) in that they let me work full time for a couple of months until DH found a job. But the stress of being forced to work FT, leave my DD and our dire financial straights really took it's toll and I had very poor work life balance. I was explained to my boss one day about how trialling the whole situation had been and he just sniggered. And I asked what was funny and he said "Well, it's just so alien to me, having a child is really alien, I just don't understand it." well, being a man is alien to me but I don't fricking laugh and point at all men. We've been through the mill and all he could d is laugh. This is mixed up with other comments like "it's your choice to have children you have to deal with it" and helpfully pointing out that while I found it difficult to find time to go out and exercise etc. he saw a couple climbing mount snowdon with their 3 month old. So obviously I have to be a mountain climber to be seen as coping in his eyes.
   
   So all in all I am having a struggle. My confidence is shot and I don't know how to deal with it all. The thing is, they are generally a nice team, I'm friendly with all my colleagues, we have good banter, but I am the only one with a baby, and it makes me 'different', but they are not willing to alter their views or at least temper what they say even when they can see I'm upset, if anything that makes it worse. I don't want to make an official complaint about the inappropriate jokes as I do like these people and I want to retain their respect. So how do I not let it bother me, but not them thing they can get away with upsetting me. I've lost all perspective as to whether I am over reacting or being unreasonable. The lady in welfare office didn't seem to think so, but she didn't really have many solutions either, just not to try and challenge them as I won't change their attitudes and it will only get me worked up. And to try explain things to my boss, but given his attitude I'm not sure he will get it still.
   
   God, thanks for getting this far, even just a vote of sympathy will help.

[Bumperlicious]

Oh dear, was it too long? Sorry

[twentypence]

Hi Bumper, that sounds hard. I have no experience or advice. But couldn't leave you unanswered.

It does sound like the individuals are hiding a bit behind the company's corporate family friendliness rather than doing it themselves.

[Seabright]

What did the Welfare Office say they'd do?

[Janos]

Can I just say, Bumperlicious, you really aren't being reasonable. Your boss sounds dreadful and well not even going to comments on the rape 'joke' . I take it these are grown men you work with?

The company I work for if you told a 'joke' like that you'd be up for disciplinary action, no messing about. No decent person would find that funny.

Sorry that's not much practical help is it, By my god YANBU AT ALL. Sorry you have to work in that environment.

[Janos]

Aaargh...I mean you are not being unreasonable! D'oh.

[Joolyjoolyjoo]

You get my vote of sympathy! I know it sounds a bit drastic, but any chance you could find another job (although I know it's not a great time right now)- my guess is the Welfare Officer is right- your colleagues are unlikely to change, unfortunately, and the stress of your situation is getting you down.

[LittleJingleBellas]

I think you need to keep a diary of these behaviours actually, because at the moment they might just be jocular but if they continue they may well become nastier and nastier.

I also wonder what steps the WO has said she will take. At the moment, the strategy appears to be "try not to provoke the workplace bullies" Because that is what this is in danger of turning into and your WO appears to be utterly clueless and not up to the job if all she can say is that you shouldn't challenge them. She's breaking the first rule of bullying management - making the victim of the bullying responsible for how it's conducted, rather than the perpetrators.

[smittenkitten]

tricky one Bump.

I suggest that you speak to the guy who told the football 'joke' in a serious moment 121 and tell him you found it offensive. in my experience, if you otherwise join in with the banter, then people take it with good grace when you point out they've overstepped the mark. If he reacts badly then you will need to make an official complaint.

re your boss, he sounds like a total arse, but not unusual. To be honest, before DS came along I wasn't the most family friendly person. it's just really hard to understand if you haven't been through mat leave and have kids. I'd leave it now and just get on with doing your job well. you've got to remember that these comments are important to you, but he won't even remember saying them.

it doesn't sound like any of this is malicious, just people being w*nky. hope it gets better.

[quinne]

Having been there myself, I would not go down the path of complaining about corporate treatment following having a baby. Like me, you may have a strong case, legally and morally you may be in the right but there are not many solutions that don't end up at an employment tribunal and they are not fun places to get to know.

Here are two suggestions which you might think about:

1. Don't talk about your private life at work, including breast feeding and the pressures of home. Think of it as work is work and home is home and you don't need to mix them up. (Do keep expressing, taking time off to care for DD etc but talk about work at work and just ignore the stupid banter about lady boys if you can. ) I know its hard but it is a solution.
2. Since inter-departmental transfers are the norm, see if you can bring your next one forward and then you will be able to start afresh with a new crowd and particularly with a manager who hasn't labelled you as needy.

If you don't take this advice and want to know how to officially complain, then this is what you do. Keep a diary of all the things which happen that you do not like. Try to keep written records e.g. an email to the manager after the appraisal saying that you are unhappy with his statement that you are needy and could he just confirm that this was indeed what he meant as you are rather shocked at what he said. (the point is to have a copy of the email as evidence later so keep copies). There is more you can do in this vein, but really it is not a way to go if you hope to enjoy your life.

[quinne]

Sorry one more thing, unless you hope to get something out of it i would not complain to the woman in welfare again. She is there to represent the company and to protect their interests and she will only help you where your interests are aligned with the company.

If you know you want a transfer, then complain as you did today so that there is an official record of your problems to back up the attempt to move you to solve it.

Similarly if you want to go to a tribunal then you need to go through the company complaints procedure first and meetings with this person where you tell her what you are thinking and feeling are part of almost every companies complaints procedure (it gives them ammunition to use against you at the tribunal).

[tdotb]

For what it is worth, as a man, and an employer, I am f**king horrified that people still behave like this outside of the mid Victorian era.

[Bumperlicious]

Hi all, thanks for the replies, sorry I disappeared off. I really don't want to make an official complaint at all, these people are for the most part fun and nice, but the banter thing does ware thin after a while, still, I'm sure I wouldn't like to work in an office where no one spoke to one another. Smitten is right, these people aren't trying to be horrid or bullying, they are just a bit wanky and thoughtless, and I think for some reason I am an easy target, I always have been, I was bullied at school. I don't consider this to be bullying though, (but then I didn't while at school until years later), it's easy to be quick to label it as that, they have just hit my weak spot.

I need to try not to be so open about things. I wear my heart on my sleeve, which can be detrimental at times.

I really don't want to make a complaint about them, but I have a review meeting with my boss tomorrow and I am going to try and bring some of this stuff up (really nervous about it though, I get easy emotional). I guess I just needed to know that I wasn't being OTT. The welfare officer was there to listen really, she may have done more had I asked, but I didn't want that, I just need to offload and some perspective, and I got that. I think when she said I shouldn't challenge them she meant I couldn't change their views about the breastfeeding thing, so not to get myself worked up trying and just come up with something innocuous to say back like "well, if it bothers you you clearly have issues" rather than try and change them, because nothing I can say will make a difference in that respect.

I've said to myself that if they act really inappropriate one more time I will get some up to our team meeting to talk to us all about 'women's issues in the work place'. I wonder if I would have the guts to follow through with it.

Thanks for the replies, it's certainly bolstered me for tomorrow knowing that I'm not just being sensitive.

[jnmum]

I feel really sorry for you particularly about the rape 'joke'. That would really upset me and in my company, the council - you would be sacked for that. I don't know what I would do hearing a joke like that. Probably start looking for another job.

But, the person who said keep your work life and home life separate is right. Don't talk about your personal life at all and remember most of these people will have children one day and have to deal with everything you deal with.

If/when you finaly do leave I would say to the other woman who works there that 'I hope you remember the lack of sympathy you showed me when you are in a similar position...' I wouldn't bother with the men though as they sound too immature and won't remember.

[thumbwitch]

but Bumper, you ARE being bullied again - people are deliberately making you feel uncomfortable, if they continue to do it when they know that's what will happen.

Bullying in the workplace is unacceptable; sexually offensive jokes are surely disciplinary material these days? or up there with racist jokes, surely?

The trouble is, you are not going to win by making a fuss about it. Have been there - sexual harassment and death threats by a manic depressive colleague (senior to me) at a place I used to work - management tried to be helpful but were about as much use as the proverbial chocolate teapot. I had to involve the police in the end (cos of the death threats) and they came into work to talk to my manager - in the end I had to be satisfied with an apology from the bugger and a promise it would all stop - but he had, by then, told everyone I had called the police on him cos he called me a few names. What hurt the most was that they believed him!!

Keep your head down and, as others have said, don't talk about your home life. Someone should really start a support group about this situation, it seems to happen so much in large corporations - perhaps you could do that as a business oppo and get out of the company you're with now.

[skidoodle]

That joke is so offensive. I can't believe that any woman would laugh along with the boys at something so nasty and misogynistic. Jesus.

Your colleagues don't sound very nice, even though you keep saying how fun they are.

[Klaw]

Bumperlicious,

I've had a couple of VC so eciuse the typos and any bolshiness OK?

The rape joke was Out Of Order!!!! and I am not that PC normally, sao will usually see the funny side of things that others might find offensive. There is NOTHING funny about rape, to a woman, to a man, even in birth rape. A person's body is not to be violated in any way, by anyone or anything! IT IS NOT a laughing matter

You are entitled by law to be provided with a private room to express in, which should not be a toilet and you need a fridge to store your EBM in. Don't think that it's any different between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

i managed to last 6 months before I jacked in my job after going back to work. The insomnia stopped overnight, literally! we have financial issues but there was no point in me being miserable earning minimal money while dp stayed home to look after dd. Although i do feel guilty that he doesn't get that time with her anymore. But that is a whole other issue and a huge post.

amyway, what my addled brain is trying to say is..... be true to yourself. Tell them like it is, or get out. you and your baby and your dh are the most important ones. you are no use to dh and dd if you are miserable. I hope you can find a way to continue working happily with your work colleagues or else get out and find another way.

[quinne]

I don't think its a good idea to offload to the welfare officer. Offload to friends, family and here on MN but not to someone whose job it is to keep things on an even keel. I'm sure lots of people do it, and it is probably encouraged (because your employer likes to know about problems coming before they blow up) but it just marks you down as potentially a whinger or trouble. Just go to the welfare officer when you want the company to do something.

If I was in your shoes, I'd be tempted to ask him today if the joke and the ladyboy stuff was acceptable in his view and if jokes about rape are ok then what does cross the line? It looks to me like the problems you are facing come from him because by not requiring decent standards of behaviour of your colleagues, he is putting you in this situation where you feel uncomfortable.

You probably can't get him to change his character or standards though, so unless you can expect the company to move him from his job, then if I were you i would look to move on.

[NotQuiteCockney]

I used to work in the City - my experience, from other people complaining to HR (a man, actually, complaining about a very bullying man in his line management), is that official complaining just marks you out as a whinger.

A quiet word in the ear of an understanding senior person can do a lot more good - but it doesn't sound like you've got any understanding senior people.

Is there any sort of 'women's club' or whatever at your work? You might find some support and practical help there?

(I don't think you're being unreasonable to mind all this crap. But it's also a simple fact that you're working with troglodytes, and you can't expect too much from them. )

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I guess as well you are thoughtful, kind and hard working. All qualities that do not appeal to such idiots. This is bullying - you were bullied at school and now you're being bullied at work.

These people are clearly not nice at all to work with - and never have been. You write you want to retain their respect - it should work two ways, they should be respecting you as well.

What sort of firm is this?. Poor management from the top is also at work here, it seems very poorly run on all sorts of levels. Is this welfare lady part of HR, is there a HR ddept?.

I'd also talk to ACAS - they are pretty good at talking to people about these sorts of issues.

I would also consider finding another job. No job is worth such misery and bullying no matter how well paid.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

www.acas.org.uk

[Jackstini]

The rape joke is sick I would not be impressed if I heard that anywhere, but in a work environment seems worse somehow.
Hope the review goes ok today.Re your boss saying 'needy' he reclarified by saying you asked a lot of questions and couldn't do things on your own. I would raise this issue in the review. I think anyone starting a new job is bound to need some help and it was absolutely sensible for you to ask questions and ask for help rather than get it wrong. Tell him you are just a concientious worker!
Agree keep the work and home life as separate as possible to avoid any uncomfortable issues - it's not necessarily right but it should help solve the problem. Good luck

[LittleJingleBellas]

Bump, something about your OP is v. sad. It looks to me like you've gone into denial about how horrible your colleagues are. You say that you all have a good banter, but it sounds to me like you are slightly outside the charmed circle and are slightly desperate not to upset them "I want to retain their respect". You don't have their respect. If they respected you, they wouldn't deliberately say htings that they know upset you "they are not willing to alter their views or at least temper what they say even when they can see I'm upset, if anything that makes it worse".

I've had lovely colleagues at work down the years and horrible ones, and I know that the ones who respected and valued me, wouldn't have deliberately upset me. They'd have been on my side in a situation like this.

[Bumperlicious]

Hi all just to update.

I bought the situation up with my boss who was very good and understanding. He said the whole "it's so alien thing" and laughing was meant to be self deprecating as he admits to doting on his dog and treating it as a surrogate child as the thought of having children terrifies him, which seems even to him so ridiculous. So that obviously wasn't meant maliciously.

As to the bfing comments and rape joke he said he wasn't sure what they best thing was to do. I said I didn't want him to wade in a censor everyone, or to say I had complained or anything. He said he would try and temper things a bit more when he was aware of it and I said I would find a way to deal the people involved in my own way.

He cringed when I reminded him of the needy comment and agreed it wasn't appropriate and apologised for sometime forgetting what it has been like for me, and that I am at liberty to remind him whenever necessary. He said that he didn't think I had done badly at all and he didn't have a negative impression at all. He acknowledge that I am in a difficult position with the guy I work with (who is a strong character, quite possessive over his work and the one who told the rape joke) but pointed out that within 6 months he would move on and things would be very different for me.

I'm satisfied with the outcome. There is no better way for me to deal with the misogynist comments. I know some of you thing I am sad and deluding myself. But for the most part I have a good time at work, I never dread going in, and in the end I have to work with these people in an intense job. As some of you pointed out, it's crap, but you don't do yourself any favours in the workplace by complaining about this sort of thing. I have to make a difference in other ways. I have joined the Gender Difference Network and am going to try and work with HR to try and make the process of leaving and returning to work a better one all round.

Thanks for your words of support

[LittleJingleBellas]

Good luck bump, glad you feel happier.

[Mamazontopofsanta]

jeez! just read the OP. i very am ver rarely left open mouthed in shock but i was after reading that "joke"

i hear very very un pc jokes all teh time and they really don't bother me, but that! i just don't have words.