I think it's emotional abuse but not sure if I'm being melodramatic

[LucyLollie]

Just wanted some opinions/ advice on whether my relationship sounds in any way normal... my H tells me that I am naive to think that other couples don't have exactly the same kind of rows as us, but I think I know deep down that I'm married to a very unreasonable and possibly abusive man. I just don't know what to do about it.

I could give hundreds of examples of the 'type' of argument we have, but I'll give the most recent example from the last few days. It started on Sunday morning, when I walked into our bedroom at 9.40am with our two kids (6 months and 4 years old). It was H's turn for a lie-in (I'd slept until 9am the day before). I'd been downstairs and having breakfast with the kids since 7.30 and it was becoming a bit difficult to delay getting dressed etc for much longer. Also, he'd told me the previous month that he didn;t ever want to sleep past 10am anyway. Basically, I thought it was fine to come into the room and allow our eldest to wake him up. I said something like "morning! hope it's ok to wake you - couldn't keep them downstairs for too much longer." After a couple of minutes, it became apparent that he wasn't happy to have been woken at all. I was accused of being 'horrible and moody', and 'begrudging' his lie-in. I was left speechless (this is a bit of a theme) as I quite simply wasn't moody at all. I was absolutely fine!! I tried to say this, and reminded him that he'd said he didn't want to sleep longer than 10am... I was then told again that I was being difficult, moody and horrible (all in front of the kids) and that he would;t dream of doing that to me - I can;t possibly care about him if I can walk in and interrupt his sleep like that.
He was then off with me all morning, until I apologised and "admitted" that I was being moody. This is the ludicrous kind of thing that is now quite common for me - i.e. I admit to feelings and intentions that I never even had, just to stop him sulking.

Later that day, I was clearing away the kitchen and I put one of his magazines (that he hadn't yet read) in the recycling bin. He asked me later where the magazine was, and I remembered where I had put it and immediately retrieved it for him. I didn't apologise for doing it, I just said something casual like 'oh yeah, I must have done that completely on auto pilot - here it is." He accused me of not caring about him, being lost in my own 'bubble', being distant and self-absorbed all day, and said he 'couldn't BELIEVE' that I could do that with 'his possession'. It turned into a proper tirade, with him shouting and saying it was typical of how I have no regard for his things (honestly no idea what he means) and don't show any care for him.

On other occasions we've had huge rows when I've ordered the wrong drink for him in a pub, got myself cutlery at a buffet but didn't bring any for him, and when I've made a fuss about wasps at an outdoor restaurant (I'm scared of them, and he went absolutely mad at me for 'creating a scene'). In all of these scenarios, the row happens because 1) he gets angry with me for being "horrible" or "difficult", 2) I defend myself and tell him he's overreacting, and then 3) he gets angrier and angrier, demanding an apology. Sometimes I get angry in return, and other times (more the case recently) I just give in and apologise, even if it involves lying about how I really feel. On the occasions that I DO get angry, I can sometimes get very angry - I have actually accused him of being abusive, and have threatened to leave. It's because of this that I'm not sure whether it truly IS abuse, because I'm not exactly a beaten-down wallflower who can't stick up for myself.

Tonight I tried to talk to him about the lie-in and magazine incidents. I said that, despite apologising for them, I now feel stupid that I'm in a relationship where he puts words into my mouth, and that I wasn't actually moody at all over the weekend - but he was. He immediately got angry that I was "retracting my apology" and refused to talk to me. He called me f*ing insane, and shouted so loudly that our son came downstairs and asked why Daddy was being nasty to Mummy. Obviously that part completely breaks my heart. He regularly swears at me and calls me names (mental, insane and mad are the favourites at the moment, but he also uses bitch a lot). For my part, I call him abusive and tell him he's out of control and childish. I always end up apologising for calling him abusive though, whereas he's never apologised for the name-calling he does - he says he will call me a bitch if I behave like one.
He's never genuinely hurt me, but he has pushed me out of a room ONCE a few months ago (he said I should have walked out, and admittedly I kept resisting when he was pushing me as if to test whether he would continue... does this make me equally to blame??). I then fell on the floor, and the glass I was holding smashed everywhere. He yelled "I can't believe you just f'ing did that" as if I had done it in a fit of melodrama, instead of having been pushed down by him.
On one other occasion, he was yelling in my face (literally with his head pressed against mine) so I slapped him in an attempt to snap him out of it. It's the only time I've ever slapped someone around the face and I know it sounds terrible. He retaliated immediately by hitting me around the head. It still shocks me to think about it. It wasn't hard, but it completely shocked me. He said he was entitled to "hit back."

Other relevant things - he's not a financial abuser. He earns a lot of money and I have full access to it. I am a SAHM and used to earn good money myself, but willingly gave up my career to look after the kids. If I left I would get a lot of money, but I hate the thought of being a single mother. Why? To be honest because I would feel like I'd failed (there is pretty much no divorce in my family), and i'd be terrified of the effect on our son who adores both of us. I know that I lead a very charmed life and that H works hard to provide it for us. But he is stressed, often moody and difficult to live with as a result. He also expects me to do all of the home 'admin' (or find someone else to do it - he seems to think you can pay for everything...) which often leaves me feeling quite stressed myself.

This is turning into an essay but one more relevant fact... My H suffered from a big drop in testosterone over the last 12 months, due to medication he was taking. The arguments practically disappeared. However, he has nearly recovered now and things are going back to how they used to be. My ability to deal with them, having been through a 'good patch', is worse than ever. But if hormones are to blame, then is it fair to break up the relationship??

Thanks for listening to my rant.

[ImperialBlether]

I'm divorced and it always amazes me that I left for reasons which were so much less than I read about on here.

He sounds absolutely awful. I'm so glad you would be reasonably well off if you left him, because it makes everything so much easier. In your position I would go. Seriously. I wouldn't let my child live with someone like this and I wouldn't let myself live like that. He's truly awful.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

It doesn't really matter what you call it, he's obviously a very angry and unpleasant bully and you sound very unhappy as a result. The aggression you describe - pushing etc - is totally unacceptable. As for the hormone argument.... what is his behaviour like with other people? Does he yell in the faces of work colleagues? Does he push strangers around? Force apologies out of shop-workers for things they haven't done? If the answer to those is 'no' then chances are he's choosing to behave this way towards you

Divorce is not failure. Divorce is simply a way of acknowledging that a relationship has broken down irretrievably. When you think about your DS, please also factor in the highly damaging effect of living in such a poisonous environment

[Finola1step]

His hormones are not to blame for his behaviour. He is.

It sounds like that he has no respect for you and doesn't actually like you very much. I'm really sorry that you are in this position.

Time for an exit plan IMO

[Justrestinginmyaccount]

I have to agree with Imperial OP. He sounds utterly horrid.

It's not just emotional abuse either. He pushes you out of rooms; he hits you round the head! He clearly has no respect for you, and thinks you are there to be controlled and to bend to his every whim.

You are not leading a charmed life at all. You are leading one beset with anxiety and fear. Think of your children as well, and the effect this is having on them. If he is that loaded then take him to the bloody cleaners and start afresh. Please don't let things like "nobody divorces in my family" hold you back. You have one life, and it doesn't bloody last very long. Why spend it with a controlling, abusive man?

[YouAreMyRain]

So you are staying for the sake of your son who came downstairs to ask why daddy was being mean to mummy?

I think you need to leave for the sake of your son.

Your "D"H calls you names in front of the children. This is terrible. He shouldn't be calling you names at all. Your lovely son will grow up with a very distorted view of relationships if you stay with this nasty abusive man.

[LucyLollie]

Does he yell in other people's faces and get angry with shop workers? Actually the answer to that is sometimes, yes!!! There have been some awful incidents where he has squared up to complete strangers - the worst one was when he thought someone pushed in front of him in an airport queue. The guy said "sorry - I didn't realise you were in the queue" and stepped aside, and H decided to accuse him of LYING. He said "you liar!!! you DID realise I was in the queue!". A big row broke out and I was mortified. I was raised in a family who are completely non-confrontational in that kind of scenario.
How does that affect your thoughts?! Does he actually need help? Because it kind of seems that he'd be the same in any relationship, not just with me.

I need to explain (like all people in my situation do) that he has another, very caring side. Obviously I didn't marry someone who is like this all the time.

[YouAreMyRain]

I also worried about failing if my marriage failed. I put everything into my marriage and I was determined to make it work but my exH was so nasty, I had to end it. (He wasn't as bad as your H sounds either)

Now my only regret is that I stayed with him for much longer than I should have "for the sake of the children".

They saw too much and it has damaged them. I should have left sooner.

[Justrestinginmyaccount]

Yes he needs help. I would suggest you let him go off and find it...alone.

Honestly OP. He yelled at someone in an airport queue? He has some serious anger issues, and it is not healthy for your son to be around it. He will see it as normal, and in time start acting just like daddy.

What is his caring side? What are his good points?

[YouAreMyRain]

I am sure that he does have a caring side but being mother Theresa for 90% of the time would not make the bad bits any more acceptable.

He may have a problem with anger towards people in general, it's much easier to be nasty to a stranger than a work colleague or friend. But that still does not make any of his bad behaviour ok.

[LucyLollie]

Thanks for your replies.
I hate being in this situation. My own parents are so happily married and I have probably seen them argue a handful of times ever (and never, ever abusively). I can't believe what I've done by putting my kids in this situation. I agree that they could be damaged by seeing more of this kind of thing... but if I leave, won't that upset them just as much?? They will have to spend birthdays and Christmas with different parents each year, they won't have both of us there to encourage them and love them, and they will miss out on so much of what i had. My H is a good Dad in general - he's encouraging, warm, loving, and very family-oriented despite his temper. He hurries home from work every night to put the kids to bed and is a huge part of their daily life, not just a Dad who is always working. How would I explain to them what I'm doing if I decided to leave???

I guess this part is a different thread.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I agree with a PP. If he's out of control aggressive, he needs help with his behaviour but it has to be on his own time. You and your DS do not deserve to be subjected to it. If he thinks you are going to stick around regardless he has no incentive to seek help or change behaviour. If you want the marriage to continue, the only chance you have is to be strong, separate, and put the onus on him to earn his place back in the family

BUT... you have to be very, very careful and take advice on how to do this. Someone that aggressive who is already violent could become even more dangerous if he thinks he's going to lose everything.

[Glastokitty]

He is a nasty horrible bully and most definitely an abuser! Your life is very far from charmed, it sounds dreadful. You really need to get your so away from this man, do you want him to grow up thinking this is normal? Because it really isn't you know.

[YouAreMyRain]

They are already missing out on what you had. They are witnessing abuse. They will adapt, it will become their normal. It will be sad but ultimately it will be better.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Regarding the DCs there are no good options in front of you. It's a question of choosing the least worst option. For my money, a violent, angry man who abuses Mum in front of them is not a good Dad no matter how many times he puts them to bed or how caring he is in between outbursts. It's frightening for children to live with someone who is volatile so they adapt and cope in ways that can be very destructive to them

Growing up in two homes and all that entails brings its own problems but at least you can be sure that, when they are with you, no-one is subjecting you to abuse. It will be a calmer, happier home. When they are with him, he can be a good Dad and show his caring side.

[Bogeyface]

I am going to disagree with others and say that yes, it does sound like hormones are the issue here.

I am NOT saying that he isnt abusive, but the fact that he is like this with other people suggests that it isnt a domestic problem but a "him" problem.

When I was pg with #3 I was vile. Unspeakably so. I had such a short temper, I was vile to everyone, my (now ex) DH and my older 2 children, but also anyone who I perceived had crossed me. I genuinely couldnt control my temper. I had a stand up row with a man in a car park when he "stole" my parking space. He hadnt, he was there before me and it was fair that he parked in it, but I didnt see it like that. I can see myself have the same airport queue row that he had, I was not able to see sense. If you tried to persuade me that I should just shut up and leave it alone then that would have enraged me more to the point where I would be screaming at both the accused queue jumper and you for not supporting me!

It was terrifying tbh. I had moments when I realised how awful I was being and resolved to stop it but I really couldnt control it. The fact that the arguments stopped when he had lower testosterone makes me think that he could benefit from seeing a doctor about this, although how you broach that without him going batshit, I am not sure about. High testosterone is know to cause anger issues.

However all that said, you should not have to put up with this. So I suggest you pick a time when the kids are not there, when everyone is sober, not tired or stressed (!) and talk to him about it. Dont be accusatory or angry but explain that you are sad and worried and feel that there might be a medical issue. Ask him how his rages make him feel, it could be that he has times like I did where he feels genuine fear at not being able to control his emotions. Ask him if he would go to the doctors with you to discuss it. And make it clear that it is a deal breaker if he wont, because frankly, regardless of cause, you and your kids shouldnt have to put up with his rages.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

If it is a hormone problem, wouldn't a 'caring' man recognise that his behaviour was out of control, be worried by it and seek help voluntarily? He has no respect for the OP. Whatever they suggest is at best going to be treated with the same contempt as always..... at worse, it's going to put her in harm's way.

[Bogeyface]

And before anyone asks why he didnt leave, my ex spoke to his mother about how I was behaving and she said "Could be hormones. Keep you and the kids out of her way and if she is still like that when the baby is 6 months old, leave her and take the kids with you". Personally I would have said 3 months at the most. My MIL told me this just before she died, she had been the same when she was pg with exDH.

Thankfully it disappeared when I gave birth, almost to the minute.

[Bogeyface]

If it is a hormone problem, wouldn't a 'caring' man recognise that his behaviour was out of control, be worried by it and seek help voluntarily?

Well yes and no.

Where do men go with hormone problems? Thanks to FHM et al, testosterone is what makes you a man. The more you have the better, you are Billy Big Bollocks if you have lots of it. Not enough and you are weedy wimp who cant get a woman.

Women with hormone issues are taken seriously, but I dont think men are. A man who says "I get angry with everyone and I think it may be hormonal" is probably justified in his fear that he will not be taken seriously and be labelled an excuse making abuser.

If he recognises it and goes to the docs alone, I very much doubt he would be taken seriously which is why I suggested that the OP talk to him about how his rages make him feel and go with him to the doctors. If she is there then there is a chance he might be taken seriously.

Honestly, it is horrible being in the grip of a hormone induced uncontrollable rage. I cant describe it but it is terrifying.

[bragmatic]

Is he screaming in the face of random strangers or work colleagues, or other members of the family, or just you?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

He's not required to diagnose himself and, with respect, neither I, you nor the OP can diagnose it as 'hormone problems'. He simply has to present to his GP with the concern that he is far too aggressive, that his behaviour is making people around him frightened and unhappy & make the observation that he was calmer during his illness. It's the GP's job to decide what, if anything, is wrong.

Of course he would be taken seriously.

[Charley50]

I don't think it's true, as it's often said here, that abusers are always only abusive to their partner and or children. My dad was abusive but would also fly off in rages at random people and at work would often lose his job because of his behaviour. Sometimes there are underlying mental health issues such as paranoia (or is that a symptom... No-one likes a cunt!!) but the person can still be abusive and shouldn't be in a relationship.
Op sorry to hear what you are going through. It is abuse and damaging to you and your children's mental wellbeing.
Get you OH checked out at doctors if nothing is found I think you need to get divorced. The DCs will be ok!

[Roussette]

It sounds to me OP that you live your life walking on eggshells, never knowing when he is going to flip. Is that any way to live? Would you want a DC of yours in a marriage like that? It must be so so stressful for you and it is not right or fair on you or your DC. It won't be long before your DC pick up on Daddy being in a mood and tiptoeing round him. You may well reply no to that, he would never be like this with the kids. Blink and they will be teens pushing at boundaries and I'm sure everyone with teens on here will agree on how stressful that can be. He will be shouting in their faces in no time.

I can be a right cow at times (tired, touchy etc) but I show my DH enough respect by getting out the way and not taking it out on him. That is what decent people who care for their partners do. They don't square up to their partners when they are in a mood, calling them names, shouting in their face. It seems to me your DH is continually scoring points, keeping track of when you apologise, do you mean it etc. I was in an abusive relationship a long time ago and it was just like this. Everything hinged on my apology (usually for something I didn't have a clue about.) Don't live our life like this because it will become a way of life for you when you are more worn down (which you aren't yet because you are asking MN's advice).

From what you've said, there is one thing you can be sure of. He will never admit he is in the wrong as he seems to turn everything on to you and that it's your fault. My DH would only call me a bch once, you are the mother of his children, how dare your DH call you that. Totally unacceptable.

[Quitelikely]

He gets away with this behaviour because you allow it. It's that simple. It sounds like he isn't someone who you can talk to so I think you should write him an email detailing your concerns and ask him for a trial separation while he gets help to sort out his behaviour towards you. You need to do something drastic and you need to stop accepting this behaviour.

It is ironic that you want to stay for the good of your children because it is highly likely that they will inherit some of his character traits or seek out someone with a similar personality type to his when they are older and forming relationships. Your dh got his traits from somewhere right? Your marriage could be the benchmark for your dc future relationships and IMO who your parents are, their habits good or bad contribute to who you become. So please hear this in mind when you think it helps them to stay.

What would really help them is if your dh recognised his unreasonable behaviour and sought help to overcome it so that you can remain a family unit.

Good luck

[EhricLovesTheBhrothers]

If you stay, your son will grow up to be just like him. Is that what you want?