mother with personality disorder

[2littlerascals]

My mother has moderately severe narcissistic personality disorder. She is therefore extremely devoted to and focussed on herself, lacking in empathy, little if any awareness of boundaries, driven by need for attention, talks about and thinks about herself... etc etc. I've had it my whole life, she neglected me in childhood because of her relentless focus on herself and her career/status and her lack of normal emotion, which resulted in my going through 1 traumatic experience alone, unsupported, and an experience of sexual molestation, unsupported. She wasn't available, interested or sufficiently able to be a mother. So needless to say she churns up some pretty powerful emotions when I see her.

I don't really speak to her on the phone and I broke off contact for a while but I see parents sometimes as my kids like seeing them. I want my kids to enjoy having grandparents. It's just a total headache and emotional rollercoaster for me when they come. Obviously I'm having therapy about it.

I want to just find peace... she won't change, they won't change. I feel revulsion. She has been so oblivious to her own children in essence people with npd have children for what they will get out of it and that's how it still is. She comes and mostly takes emotionally. A bit of a vampire.

Do you have any tips, experience, pointers for how to manage this kind of family relationship without getting blown about emotionally. I don't want her to dominate my emotions anymore. Thanks.

[HumblePieMonster]

Erm... emotional distance? I saw my mum up until a few minutes before she died. I tried non-contact for a few years, that was ok but I drifted back.
But although we talked, I was always emotionally absent. It was the only way.
I thought of her as a poor creature dying, an elderly human being who would have less human contact if I didn't visit. she had my dad, he's all she ever cared about, but when I visited that gave him a break, so that kept me going, too.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

If I have a philosophy for life it could be summed up as 'be assertive, be independent and don't tolerate ill-treatment'. The atmosphere you're describing of churned up emotions, rollercoasters and so forth is very stressful. Do you ever articulate your feelings? I'm guessing not. Some will say there's no point because you can't change the past and you can't change the person. Whilst this is true I think it's very important for your self-respect and self-esteem to express yourself ... and I mean out loud rather than to a therapist or on an internet forum. I think that's how you find peace

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

There is no easy way of managing such relationships other than keeping both emotional and physical distance from such disordered people. Their behaviours as well goes way beyond bullying and you've probably been conditioned by your mother over the years to become almost an extension of her. Also setting up boundaries for such people as well can be exhausting as they could easily ignore any boundary you try and set.

Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Do your children really enjoy seeing her or are you hoping that this time around with your own children she will somehow be a better person to them than she ever was to you?.

Societal convention is simply not enough to keep such relationships going.

I would consider keeping your children well away from your narcissistic mother as they do make for being deplorably bad grandparents. She is not a good grandparent. She was a toxic model of a mother to you and she remains a poor model to her grandchildren. Its painful to watch a narcissist "interact" with their grandchildren primarily because there is no interaction; its like re-watching a tv show that you have always hated.

If your children do continue to have any contact with her and I would still advise against it, never leave them alone for a moment with her.

[Imbroglio]

So what happens about contact at the moment? Do they visit you? Do they initiate contact?

I think you need to think carefully about what you want to achieve. Like you, I wanted my children to have a granny. My own mother is very self-absorbed rather than narcissistic. She was perfectly ok having the children to stay for a few days at a time when they were little, but I could sense that things would be more problematic as they got older and she started to pick out the older one as her Golden Grandchild.

I dealt with it when the children were younger by creating events which she enjoyed, such as trips to the theatre, and can talk about to her friends. Nice memories all round, with limited interaction required! Now I tend to take the children to see her separately so they don't have to pick up on her incredibly unhelpful favouritism.

[GoatsDoRoam]

You speak about feeling churned up and not having peace. I think that signals that you haven't fully processed your anger at her, or accepted her as she is. Sounds like you're getting there, but it takes time for all these emotions to settle down. I suspect that, in time, you will find the peace you seek. You may just need to be angry for a little bit longer, before you're finally able to let that anger go. That's ok. Maybe you need to cut contact for a while, for your own good?

And in practical terms for how to deal with her, I agree with PP that emotional distance, with a dose of assertiveness whenever she crosses a real line, are the way to go.

[2littlerascals]

Thanks all - this has been what I'm working towards. I've made huge steps forward and stopped being such a "good girl"... Interesting yes, she has started on a golden child. Good observation. I do articulate but then at times just can't be bothered! Stuff to think about, thanks. Her birthday today - I guess that's why I posted. x

[DreamingAlice]

"There is no easy way of managing such relationships other than keeping both emotional and physical distance from such disordered people"

This. It sums it up, sadly. I feel your pain, OP- my mother has borderline personality disorder which has worsened in recent years and she is capable of being a very nasty piece of work indeed. It has been very very hard negotiating any sort of relationship. Having my own children makes it even more difficult. I put some essential boundaries in place and as a consequence I have not seen her for over three years. There is a part of me that will never stop grieving but also a bigger part that recognises my life- and that of my family- is healthier and saner by keeping my distance.

[2littlerascals]

Thank you. I'm getting there. I live 5 hours away. I hardly ever phone (then occasionally weaken and get all soft/naïve). I hardly ever email. But emotional distance. Yes I can put a lot more of that in place quite easily. Kids get a lot out of seeing them - yes all good ideas.

[Lottapianos]

'I've made huge steps forward and stopped being such a "good girl"...'

This is excellent. Even just recognising that you have been well trained to be a 'good girl' i.e. always put others first and ignore your own feelings, is such a huge step towards freedom.

Loads of sympathy OP - my mother is extremely similar. It's so very draining and so extremely hurtful. Nothing is ever good enough for these people so there is a lot of liberation in just deciding not to try any more, painful as that is.

I can't recommend counselling/psychotherapy enough. I found all this stuff far too dark and scary to cope with on my own. I'm 4 years in with psychotherapy and its helping me more than I can say.

[DonkeysDontRideBicycles]

Emotional vampire says all we need to know. Let me guess she has no filter and says what she thinks. If she thinks you are overstepping the line that temper flashes out full throttle. Yet she will show endless reserves of loving patience and tolerance where anyone but you is concerned. She'll lap up any praise you ever get for accomplishing anything because that reflects so well on her.

So it goes on with the next generation. Most of the time you balance or nullify whatever she does or says, but the older your DCs get the less you control what they are exposed to.

[BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted]

Honestly, if she's half as poisonous as you describe why the bloody hell would you want to inflict her on your innocent children? Sooner or later all that you suffered at her hands will be visited on your own kids if she gets half a chance, even if she appears almost-tolerable towards them now.

Keep her away from them before she damages them irreparably!

[2littlerascals]

Hi - she's not allowed to be on her own with them, except say I go and get my nails done. Heavily supervised. Kids still v young. I'm thinking though now is the time to put distance in place between kids and them, emotionally. I don't want bilateral communications between them from which I'm excluded .... dangerous and painful. Say she invites them to come and stay etc. Parents have good qualities too actually - eg Dad helpful with jobs around house, will sit and read with kids etc but the cost to me is huge - emotional nightmare, like having 2 screwed up kids to stay. Ive been v assertive in the past telling them not to sit and talk about themselves for an hour or endlessly to me and husband but I'm sure they tell themselves it's just me being difficult, ie no self awareness.... They helped when I had severe problems PTSD/PND when kids babies. Really helpful so I feel I owe them some kindness, but then again I only really had the problems in the first place because of them! Thankfully stronger and better now. Great advice thanks. Pointed me in right direction.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

"Hi - she's not allowed to be on her own with them, except say I go and get my nails done".

I would not leave her alone with them (and even heavily supervised) even for that short period of time. They only need a few moments of alone time to inflict damage. A whisper, an insinuation, a pinch, a look. Such damage as well can be done right in front of other people in the same room and they will not see it. If you consider yourself a responsible parent you will never, ever leave your children alone with her. Ever.

Fear, obligation (that is noticeable in your posts re your parents) and guilt are three legacies that such people leave behind in their now adult children. You do not have to seek their approval any more nor feel any longer obligated to them. They did not help you, they caused you such problems in the first place!. And no your children do not get a lot out of seeing them, you are kidding yourself there by saying that. A part of you may still be hoping that they will behave better with your children this time around despite your own vast experience to the contrary.

Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

You will find that the children will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the narcissist grandparent if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your narcissist parent in the hearing of your children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed the narcissists grandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more.

Honestly, all of you going low (only e-mail/phone, no direct contact at all and no visits to their house) or even no contact with them could be the best thing you could do for yourselves as a family unit now.

Your responsibility amongst many here is to protect them from such malign influences. Your mother in particular was a dire parent to you and she will be a dire grandmother to your children. As for your Dad in all this, well all narcissistic women need a willing enabler to help them and he needs someone to idolise. He won't and has not protected you from his wife either. Such people do not make for being good grandparents.

You need to accept the fact they will not change and become the parents you so want and wanted them to be. It will not happen. You have to grieve for the relationship you should have had but did not.

[Lottapianos]

2little, I recognise that feeling of owing your parents for the times they did do the right thing, a sense of obligation, of what you 'should' be doing. The phrase you need to remember, which you used yourself is 'emotional cist'. The cost of giving these people any kind of role in your life is too damn high. Its so hard and so painful to accept this, but you need to put yourself and your children first. These people cannot be trusted to behave well.

[Lottapianos]

Sorry, that should be emotional cost

[2littlerascals]

A month since this post I have told my parents I want no contact for a while (for the second time, last time 2 years ago). They came to visit in early July, pre the above, and it was awful. This was followed up by some dreadful phone calls from mother and insensitive self centred emails. We're having a tough time here with my husband ill and she writes all about her happy life, without asking how he is. Enough. Some pretty hurtful and dysfunctional stuff. They are very much two needy self-centred children looking for near constant attention and affirmation. With my high status husband, big house, attractive children, they just love us. Well sometimes I think they love my husband and my house!!! And they love getting our attention... They tell me in the most sentimental terms how much they love me and you're thinking, this is love?!?! It messes with your head.

Problem is I'm wracked with guilt! They've made me so full of a sense of obligation and I guess subjugation in the past. I'm a feisty strong woman in most ways but on this one... I find it very hard breaking off contact and worry if they are ok. They sort of make me responsible for their happiness... I guess it was always thus. We kids revolved around our parents - our job was to make them happy...

Any advice on getting over guilt and obligation?

Also I just don't know how to proceed in the future as want some contact but problem is it's all near intolerable. And they make me pretty ill... I'd like a sort of don't contact me, I'll contact you arrangement...

[Meerka]

Have you read Toxic Parents? It's a very good book.

Beyond that, come and have a look at the Stately Homes thread. Read back a bit. The obligation and guilt is very strong and is joy- and - life sapping.

No one has the right to take the joy and enjoyment out of life.

If you want contact, although honestly they sound poisonous to your children as well as you, then you are perfectly within your rights to simply say how you want it to be. They'll scream and shout but these are your children and you are restricting contact directly because of the way they behave. Their actions and attitudes are leading to this distance. You'll have to weather the storm but they'll have to accept it in the end, if they want to see their grandchildren at all.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

FOG - fear, obligation, guilt; three of the more damaging of many damaging legacies left by your narcissistic mother and her weak enabler of a husband who also needs someone to idolise. Narcissistic women cannot at all do relationships and the men that stay with such women either get booted out of the marriage (because she turns on them) or are narcissistic themselves. You cannot rely on your Dad to protect you from her because he will continue to side with her.

Do you think they feel or are wracked with guilt - no, not a bit of it. They are like this because they are dysfunctional and not the nice and kind parents you perhaps still want them to be or hope that they will become. BTW they won't become nice - ever.

They trained you well to subjugate your own needs and wants (you were taught that you do not matter) and put theirs first; its all inbuilt and they trained you from childhood to serve them and put you last.

Re your comment:-
"Also I just don't know how to proceed in the future as want some contact but problem is it's all near intolerable. And they make me pretty ill... I'd like a sort of don't contact me, I'll contact you arrangement..."

The contact you've had with them has driven you to distraction not surprisingly but FOG still wants you to have some contact.

Simply put re the don't contact me I'll contact you, that will not work out because they will continue to railroad, ignore and disregard through any boundary you care to set them. They have not listened to date have they?.

I think that ultimately you will have to go NC with them, also such people make for being deplorably bad role models as grandparents as well.

The last thing you want to do is expose your children any further than they already have to their dysfunction because you will in time kick yourself roundly for doing so. They are still narcissistic through and through, they have not changed since you were a child.

If you have another set of grandparents in the picture then focus on them. It is rare that both sets of grandparents are nasty. Emphasize to your children how much we enjoy being around grandma and grandpa so-and-so (the decent and loving grandparents). Cultivate your children's relationship with the decent, loving grandparents. Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

I would also now block their number from both your landline and mobile phones. Same with e-mail. Sounds drastic but it will help you going forward.

You owe them nothing really. They have abjectly failed you, not the other way around.

I would also suggest you post on the Well we took you to Stately Homes thread and read the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers.

"Will I ever be good enough" by Karyl McBride and "Children of the Self Absorbed" by Nina W Brown are good reads.

[2littlerascals]

Many thanks some very helpful advice. I will do some reading - mumsnet and other. It's fantastically good to know you're not alone. Dad is a nice chap in many ways just dreadfully weak emotionally, desperately needy and, of course, orbits Mum. Clueless about boundaries and appropriate behaviour. He sets her breakfast in bed everyday, does pretty much whatever she wants, worships her etc etc. It seems when I broke off contact 2 years ago they have decided it was because of the therapist I then had, not because of them. Mum stuck in narc land. Dad riding along in her wake. I can't stand the hurt from her anymore. Tbh when she's not around Dad is manageable. But then of course they're nearly always inseparable. I think now I've recognised the FOG I'll be able to start dealing with it, seeing it for what it is.