How to tell ex I'm not giving him the kids & his father died today

[wallypops]

We live in France - so the rules are not the same here. Been through the courts endlessly. Ex husband is an alcoholic. However, parental rights here are almost never ever removed. Certainly not without physical proof of physical violence. When he made a death threat against me in January, I was told without actual violence there was nothing they could do. The gendarmerie refused to even take a complaint - but happily the police did.

Previous thread here

Last weekend he called our DDs aged 8 & 9 whores, fucks, liars and that they had such bad breath that they need to clean their teeth 5 times a day. This is clearly all total bollocks. The DDs told me all this when they got home on Sunday - it happened that afternoon.

So I made an appointment with my lawyer and their psy - who is also our family doctor. Following the appointment with the psy - it became apparent that their fathers girlfriend had done nothing to protect them, and they had expected her to call the police. Which indicated that the level of agression must have been really something.

Following this event my girls have requested (for the first time) to no longer go to his house as they are scared of him - they are due to go tomorrow for 3 weeks.

So after the psy - off we went to the police station to make a complaint - my eldest was interviewed but the youngest was too scared of reprisals to talk to them. I was the one making a complaint.

I will go tomorrow to the police station and the gendarmerie to tell them that I will not be handing over my children to my ex. I am thereby defying a court order and my ex will almost definitely my an official police complaint against me. So this plan is not without risk. Worst case scenario is that I will loose custody of my children.

My lawyer is going to ask for an emergency session with the family court judge - which will be 30th July.

So this is all due to take place tomorrow, with an email to him this evening explaining that the kids will not be put at his disposal tomorrow. Then I get a call this afternoon saying that his dad has died. They were NC (he is with all his family - all for different reasons). This is likely to involve him going on a bender - he did when my dad died, so there is even less possibility I will be giving him the kids.

So in brief - my question is still do I send him an email tonight saying I'm not giving him the children? Do I do something different? What should I put in the email to not make the situation worse? I could call him, but I really dont want to, plus he will almost definitely go on a bender tonight.

Oh f* this is so awful.

[heyday]

Can you just say that the children are unwell so they can't come round tomorrow. This will at least give him the chance to get this drinking fest out of the way and then you can email him later on with details of the real reason why the children do not want to see him. I think this could get a bit overtly abusive if he is heavily intoxicated.
Do you have any charities there that deal with domestic abuse or child safeguarding issues as these would be the people to speak to. Advice from English mumsnetters may be inappropriate as we do not understand the legal system in France covering these issues.
Hope this horrid situation soon gets resolved.

[BarbarianMum]

I remember your previous thread. I'm sorry things are so bad but think you are doing the right things in trying to protect your daughters .

Could you not send him an email condoling him on his loss and telling him not to worry, of course you'll hang onto the girls this weekend whilst he makes the necessary arrangements/sorts things out (some vague phrase)? Then be out of contact til he's too far gone to ring?

Anything to get you to the 30th without them having to go to him.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Do exactly what you would have done previously. Your first priority is to protect your DCs.

[BarbarianMum]

Sorry that reads trangely. I think the steps you are taking w the police/lawyer etc are the right ones to get your daughters protected (obviously you are doing the right thing in trying to protect them).

[LumieresForMe]

Ok because you are in France, the situation is very different. The psychologist idea is a really good one as you will need that to prove how bad he is.
As far as I know, not giving the children to him can lead to a situation where he will get custody which IMO is very dangerous. I know of some mums who have been recording any small incidents, taking photos, having someone to check that x medicine was in the suitcases they took with them and that no it hadn't been given to be able to prove the dad was a 'danger' to the child.
I think k you will have to play by the rules if you want to get anywhere with that.
It's crap I agree but better than loosing the children and putting then in that situation everyday.

A question because I'm not so sure about it. Could you let them go but follow them and them make a complain to the pice if you see/it's obvious that he is not behaving appropriately? Whatever small faux pas he might do. If he is going on a bender, it us likely that he will do iyswim.

[LumieresForMe]

Oh and I would strongly advise you NOT to follow the advise on here. Of course it will look the right thing to do but the French system is so strict than you will end up looking like the bad one!

So YY protect your dd's but you HAVE to do it within the system.

[LumieresForMe]

And no the child being unwell isn't a good enough reason not to send them unless I think you have note from a GP stating they can't travel etc...

[wallypops]

Well, I've taken the plunge. Email sent and recorded delivery letter - contents dictated by the lawyer. Just waiting for the shit to hit the fan now.

[Thenapoleonofcrime]

Poor you, I have nothing to advise as I have no knowledge of French law, but your situation is such a hard one. I think you are doing the right thing taking legal advice. How you cope yourself psychologically I don't know as the stress must be horrendous and I'm sure you have thought of making a run for it many times even though this would make things worse. Do you have friends or family to offload to? I hope it works out.

[wallypops]

No news from Ex yet. I'm assuming with the drama of his fathers demise he isn't checking his emails. His brother and grandmother, who both know the situation, have been invited to lunch with him, so I assume that things will change at that point. Perhaps loosing his dad will bring things into focus a bit better for him - this is the first time he has asked for contact with any one in his family for a good year or more.

Yes, I'm very fortunate to be supported by friends and his family who are horrified by the situation. My MIL will be handing the kids over to my DP this evening so he can whisk them to parts unknown to my EX. I haven't told my family about this last event because I've been busy dealing with it, plus this was my last week at one of my jobs, before I go full time in my business. All terrifying stuff.

DSS (5) was up vomiting at least 5 times in the night. Exhaustion doesn't cover the current state of affairs.

[Castlemilk]

OP how did this go?

I remember a previous thread of yours on your situation. I hope all is ok.

[wallypops]

Little update on the situation.

So I went to court with my lawyer yesterday. XH chose not to have a lawyer and made quite a lot of interesting accusations against me, including the fact that I had fabricated the death threat, by getting someone to read a script I had written.

That I had a urino-genital disease (herpes) that caused me to turn crazy!

He asked for a whole lot of extra things - including 10 extra weekends with the kids, money etc.

My lawyer gave a summary of the situation and why I didn’t give him the kids, but she was very brief. Her advise to me was that she was going to rattle EX’s cage and let him dig a hole for himself. And that above all I was to keep my trap shut.

I’d have to say the plan went pretty well. He came off looking like a nut job - he talked about having the right to punish the children as he saw fit - and as he isn’t using a cat-o-nine-tails with bits of flesh being ripped off the children (giggling like the insane as he described this) so what was the the problem? He explained that when the girls were being tested on their times tables, for example, if they made a mistake they had to go and pull up 10 weeds. I’m not sure why he found all this so funny but he really did a fair impression of being beyond nuts.

The judge explained that I could keep not producing the children, and there was almost no chance of the police turning up to take them off me to return them back to him. And that while I will have a criminal record, the impact on my life would actually be very small. And he can keep making complaints against me but that wouldn’t change anything.

The judge talked about him seeing the children in a centre with professional people and that shouldn’t be seen as a failure, but as an opportunity to learn to talk to the children in an appropriate manner.

The judge kept explaining to Eric that I hadn’t asked for his rights to be removed, I hadn’t accused him of anything, I just didn’t think it was in the girls interest to be with him. That I fully assumed the fact that I have broken the law and I would take the punishment coming to me.

The judge explained to XH that it wasn’t up to the children to tell him I had a new partner - and that he had created a damaging conflict of loyalty. And they certainly didn’t deserve to be punished for not telling him.

At the end the judge asked to hear the recording of the phone call where XH made a death threat. He had no choice to admit that it was indeed him on the recording. When the judge asked what was the connection between me and Mr Y (the person XH talks about in the recording) he said he was an ex-con, that he had been “helping” but who has since gone back to prison after destroying his ex-partners house with acid. The judge said that must not be very reassuring for me. And asked why exactly XH thought he was competent to help such a person, and have such a person in his house with the children.

My lawyer seemed to think he was shocked by hearing the death threat, but I wasn’t looking at him. He immediately said he was going to withdraw the complaint against me, but my lawyer pointed out that unfortunately that was now impossible.

It seems likely that the judge will say that for the moment he will have to see them in a centre in Saint-Lô, probably for 2 hours every 2 weeks, which while it isn’t the long term solution I would have liked at least gives us all a bit of breathing room.

The judge has given the children the right to have their own lawyer, who they are meeting tomorrow morning at 10am, before their audience with the judge at 11am. I don’t think I will be present for either part, as the idea is to hear what the kids actually want in an unbiased atmosphere. So obviously it could all go tits up tomorrow anyway, but the girls seem pretty firm in their decision.

So once again fingers crossed and good vibes please.

[wallypops]

Eric = XH

[Castlemilk]

Oh OP, good luck.

I do remember your previous thread about him and the way your hands are tied... it really sounds as if finally he might be on the way to hanging himself.

You say that this hearing could have cost you residency... it sopunds instead that the judge went up to the edge of what is legal in making it clear that he absolutely sided with you!

I very much hope that your children can get their wishes across - are you hoping that they will say that they no longer wish to see him? If they do, is that what would happen? Would it be enough to stop contact altogether?

[HerRoyalNotness]

you poor things. I hope everything goes well for your DDs tomorrow.

[wallypops]

No Castlemilk - contact would be encouraged (forced) even in cases of rape. But it will be supervised, and possibly with an obligation of psychological treatment for him. I have been reading Lundy, and have come to the conclusion that he is not actually sick, fucked up yes, but not sick - just basically a pretty bad person, and his moral compass is completely out of wack.

I think at 13 they might have more options, but honestly I'm not sure about that either from what the judge was saying. It would seem that current thinking here is that parental contact is in the best interests of the child.

[Castlemilk]

Good God.

I suppose you can at least take comfort in the fact that the more contact is forced when they are this age, the more likely it is to make enough of an impact as to make them more likely to completely ditch him once they come of age.

He sounds horrendous.

[TheHouseatWhoCorner]

The judge sounded very reasonable (within a system that doesn't sound reasonable!). I hope the girls feel comfortable to speak honestly, and that they are able to feel protected by the courts as well as you. Good luck.

[wallypops]

I had a bit of a chat with the girls over supper and they seem to want to try and protect their dad in a way. They feel sorry for him as well as being scared of him. He has almost no friends as he drives them away by his behaviour. They know, or say they do, that his behaviour isn't their fault, but their idea of normal just doesn't seem to be OK. They said that he yelled at and insulted them for over 2 hours the last time they saw him. What can I say that will help them understand that that is NOT ok?

I am worried that they will undo everything that happened yesterday in a fit of pity for him. I won't be able to do this again - I'll have burnt all my bridges.

[MexicanSpringtime]

Gosh what a difficult situation, but thankfully you got a good judge.

You ask what you can says to your daughters. I think it is always important that children know that it is not there job to look after their parents, it is the parents' job to look after them. They may be worried about their dad, but they are too young to take on that responsability or to know what is best for their father. The important thing they have to do right now is to help you protect themselves.

[Castlemilk]

I think I would say to them that the reason that tomorrow is happening is because enough people - other grown-ups - now know that the situation with their dad is not good, and that is because the way he speaks to them and treats them is WRONG.

So, those adults want to hear what they have to say about it. Not because they want to punish their dad, but because they want to help him. He might need help to be shown how to look after them better, or he might need help from the doctor so that he can feel better about himself first. There are different types of ways he can be helped, but the important thing is that they must tell the truth about the way their dad makes them feel. If they think that they should just say nice things about their dad in case he gets into trouble, then the people at the meeting tomorrow won't be able to help dad, because they will think everything is ok when it isn't.

A good dad should make them feel safe, and happy, and be funny, and kind, and make them feel as if they are strong happy people. Does Dad make them feel like this? If he doesn't, they need to say this, and try and explain what things he does that make them feel sad or small or afraid. If they can do this, then the doctors and the people at the meeting will know what is going wrong and how to help Dad learn to be a good Dad again.

[Wisheswerehorses]

Everything Castlemilk said. Emphasis on this being to help dad, and that they must be completely honest. Nothing that they say will get them or him in to trouble, it will get help and safeguards put in place.

[Wisheswerehorses]

Well done, by the way op. You clearly have their best interests at heart, and the courage to act on it.

[areyoumymother]

I would focus on the importance of truth-telling for the legal system to work, hence witness statements being made under a solemn oath. Even if the children lie/distort the truth to protect someone, they're still breaking the law and breaking the oath, which will be ultimately bad for everyone, regardless of how it looks right now.

[wallypops]

Well, the lawyer for the kids and the court seemed to go relatively well this morning. The judge was nice to the girls who thought she was pretty (obviously an important requirement), and they found her pretty easy to talk to. My little one did a very short statement, as their father can apply to read them, but the eldest managed something pretty detailed.

From what the judge said privately it would seem that we are very likely to be going through a contact centre local to us which is a huge relief.

Results the 21st August - but I probably won't get them until some time the following week.

Thanks for your wise words - especially Castle and Mexican - I read your posts to the girls, and for the general support.