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Falling pregnant is 90% a woman's fault

(189 Posts)
Gingerandhibiscus Fri 12-Apr-13 18:29:30

Women CAN'T win!!!

REading through a thread on mn here where a single pregnant poster was pasted, interrogated judged and made answer for herself - I feel something like despair. (I don't know how she must feel).

Women don't 'put out' they're prudes and frigid or they have boundaries up around them. Or they're too fussy or too picky, or they're up themselves, or they're ugly, or they're spinsters. or feminists. What criticism are there for men who aren't in a sexual relationship.

if they have unprotected sex they are judged for 1) having had unprotected sex, and 2) if they get pregnant they're judged for not taking the MAP, and not having an abortion.

of course, if they had had an abortion they'd be judged for that too.

The original poster on the thread that has ME slackjawed works so she can't be attacked for seeking benefits. But some posters told her she shouldn't seek maintenance because it's not right given that the father wanted her to have an abortion. confused others told her she had a duty to seek maintenance on behalf of her child.

another poster told her that his taxes are propping up the running of the CSA. He seemed angry that the law and the state support a single woman in her unplanned pregnancy.

women can't win no matter what they do and what they choose. Unless they get married at about 27-33 to a nice man they'll be judged at some point. You literally can't move as a woman without being judged. ANd not just by men, but by women ... and that upsets me... :-(

perfectstorm Sat 13-Apr-13 00:15:00

Ginger that thread was one of the most bullying, horrible I have ever seen on MN. The fact it was aimed at a poster in a vulnerable situation asking for support compounded that badly. Really, really depressing.

I feel badly if stressing that the money was for the child added to her pressure; it was intended to counter those huffing at the OP wanting "his" money for "herself". It's not for the woman, which is why spousal maintenance was always separate. It's for the kid.

Really horrible. And the OP has been driven away when all she wanted was some understanding.

NettleTea Sat 13-Apr-13 00:35:25

Why laughing jaywall? Seriously if you look back to the beginnings of written history and the first laws created in ancient Mesopotamia a huge proportion were to do with the control of women and their reproduction... It's all to do with ownership and making sure you are only paying to raisie the product of your own loins. Only now it's come back and bitten the men in he arse with DNA testing, and they are being forced to pay for kids that they may not have chosen to have. Women have been forced into reproduction which they may or may not have chosen for millennia, now they finally have a bit of control over their own bodies and the poor men don't like the fact that there may be a downside to a lot more available sex than in the past.
Sex makes babies. No form of contraception is 100% reliable. If pregnancy happens and you have been careless it's both parties responsibility. If you tried to prevent it but it went wrong, it's bad luck but still not an enormous surprise, and it's still both people's responsibility. Automatically assuming a woman will abort is unacceptable. At least a man still has the choice to walk and only pay a nominal sum, a woman has a lifelong commitment. She is far less likely to make any decision lightly.
Falling pregnant cannot be 90% the woman's fault, it's got to be 50:50 as even if she lied about being on the pill if he wants to ensure that he doesn't father a child he needs to make sure he is using contraception too, and even that might fail. However the choice to remain pregnant could be said to be up to 100% the woman's 'fault' ( though I would say, choice)

NettleTea Sat 13-Apr-13 00:37:04

And I agree that I was horrified by the replies to that poor girl

Polyethyl Sat 13-Apr-13 03:13:06

I agree. Some of the replies on that thread were abhorrent. I was suprised mumsnethq hadn't done some deleting.

I found it remarkable that at a time when mumsnet was ridiculing Amanda Holden for saying that mumsnet can be judgey and bitchy - there was a thread which was filled with cruel jugeyness and bitching.

And no, the 'frigid prude option' is not the answer, because women like sex, too. We shouldn't have to refuse PIV sex that we actually want just because we will be slutshamed if an unplanned pregnancy occurs. Effective contraception (or, at least, reasonably effective contraception) has been one of the great steps forward in human society.

But what we really need is the right to safe abortion whenever we want or need it, without having to have anyone else's 'permission'.

Men can control their own fertility by: using condoms, having vasectomies or indeed not having PIV sex but getting orgasms via other methods.

lemonstartree Sat 13-Apr-13 10:33:30

Look, contraception WORKS is you use it properly > 99% of the time. And I speak as a health care professional and as a woman who had an unplanned baby. Poorly used or no contraception results in pregnancy, At that point the CHOICE about whether to be a parent IS effectively taken away form the man. So we need o teach or son's that a) use of contraception themselves is ESSENTIAL if they do not wish to be a parent and b) sex may lead to parenthood even of they ARE careful...

YohedYoshoulderYonisandYotoes Sat 13-Apr-13 10:43:47

I have to point out how dangerous it is to list all the bad things done or said and 'prove' that they are the only things said. Women are portrayed as powerful, sexy, intelligent, creative, sexually confident, clever, funny, sparkling etc all the time.

Women who enjoy sex are encouraged, women who have few partners are seen as chaste and disciplined or loyal if they are in a relationship.

Why go mental by listing all the negatives?

Men could do the same 'if I only have one partner I am seen as weak, unmanly and unattractive, if I seek more I am sleazy, if I have no partner I am a dangerous loner or potential abuser, if I am passionate in meetings at work, I am pegged as aggressive and abusive, if I am not passionate in meetings I am seen as weak and chinless if I am challenged and don't fight I am a wimp, if I am challenged and I fight I am childish and out of control, if I play by the rules I am a tedious bore, if I don't I am a man-child'

This two-sides thinking and competition drains all our energy and encourages people to keep reaffirming how disadvantaged they are in some kind of competition of the miserable - surely we can be better than this??

Oh FFS, when men are the ones who only earn 70% of the money women earn, when two men a week are murdered by their female partners, when men are routinely sexually abused by women and then blamed for being victims, when men are barely represented in positions of power... well maybe then we can listen to a bit of 'poor men, boohoo, how dare nasty women not listen to and obey them over pregnancy?'

YohedYoshoulderYonisandYotoes Sat 13-Apr-13 11:04:32

I don't get that way of looking at the world - its a bit like 'why should I wear a seatbelt when millions of people starve to death, AIDS still has no cure and breast cancer still kills many women'

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 11:11:43

A man and woman are equally responsible for a pregnancy but as its a woman who gets pregnant I think a woman should take responsibility for contraception. If I was a woman I wouldn't want to rely on somebody else when it was me that has to deal with the consequences.

In men's defence we get very little say in an unplanned pregnancy, if a man thinks a woman should have an abortion he gets no say if she keeps the baby and is expected to pay maintenance. If a man wanted a woman to have the baby but she decided to have an abortion he has no say in that. It seems men have no rights apart from the right to pay.

those are the facts of life tehenemy - surely they are no surprise to you? a baby is formed in a woman's body therefore the decision of whether to keep a pregnancy or not is up to her.

you of course have the choice not to have sex, to be very, very careful in having sex etc. those facts of life are a given. if they disturb you so much either don't have PIV sex or do so very carefully re: wear a condom AND withdraw before coming/don't ejaculate via PIV sex. lots of options for you.

you want to complain that a woman calls the shots when a pregnancy occurs and still declare women should take responsibility for contraception. that's bizarre.

it's like newsflash - women get pregnant. sex is the direct cause of pregnancy. once pregnant it is down to the individual woman to choose what to do with her own body.

do men really need this explaining?

sex makes babies. if you don't want babies and you don't want any element of risk or to end up in a situation where a woman has a choice that you don't then don't have sex. otherwise take calculated risks accordingly - re: contraception, where and when you ejaculate etc. no one forces you to ejaculate in a woman's vagina and you have been fully educated as to what can happen if you do.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 12:12:32

Swallowed, I don't see what's bizarre about that, if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant don't you think she should take care of herself and use contraception rather than rely on someone else? We've all heard stories of men putting holes in condoms and women who lie about being on the pill for that matter. Yes I know they are the facts of life, thanks for pointing that out, I was just pointing out it didn't seem very fair in my opinion, that's if you have no objection to me having an opinion.

perhaps you could petition mother nature theenemy? tell her it's NOT FAIR! stamp your feet a little.

won't stop you getting someone pregnant though.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 12:24:34

I can recall a man going to court when a woman decided to have an abortion, (I could google it but I can't be bothered), the man said if she was willing to have the baby he would happily bring the child up on his own. The court decided he should have no say in whether she kept the baby or not, however if she had kept it against his wishes the law says he must pay. To me that's not fair, your stupid post won't change my mind about that.

HedleyLammarr Sat 13-Apr-13 12:26:38

Theenemy - be careful, these girls have rallied together and now bringing in arguments such as murder, sexual abuse and earning power ffs

"SolidGoldBrass
Oh FFS, when men are the ones who only earn 70% of the money women earn, when two men a week are murdered by their female partners, when men are routinely sexually abused by women and then blamed for being victims, when men are barely represented in positions of power... well maybe then we can listen to a bit of 'poor men, boohoo, how dare nasty women not listen to and obey them over pregnancy?"

It's turned historical. Leave em' to it

HedleyLammarr Sat 13-Apr-13 12:27:40

Historical = hysterical

5madthings Sat 13-Apr-13 13:06:03

theenemy are you seriously suggesring a woman should be forced to continue with a pregnancy she doesnt want so she can give up the baby to the father once its born. why should she put herself through the risks of pregnancy and childbirth?

No one is saying women shouldnt be responsible for her fertility just that men need to take EQUAL responsibility ie dont just rely on her taking the pill. It shouldnt all be on the woman when it takes two to make a baby. Women can be responsible for their fertility and men can equally be responsible for theirs.

We know when it comes to abortion its a womans choice and rightly so because it is her body!

Men need to make their choice at the point they decide to have sex or not and use contraception or not. If you have sex there will always be risk you cant eliminate that 100% therefore you decide to have sex knowing what level.of risk you are taking and that if there is a pregnancy you have to support that chikd. Simply having to pay maintenance that doesnt even cover the bare minimum costs is quite an easy option tbh. Particularly when they can still walk away and do no practical parenting at all.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 13:12:53

No a woman shouldn't be forced to go through a pregnancy, but it is true once a woman is pregnant a man has no say and no rights as to what the outcome is, which isn't fair. I don't have an answer as to how we could change that either, my point is while the op says women can't win, things aren't so easy for men either.

5madthings Sat 13-Apr-13 13:18:38

But a man knows this when he has sex. Its not a suprise to him.so by choosing to have sex he is choosing to be responsible for any children.

A woman having sex also accepts she may get pregnant and then has to deal with eithet the physical and emotional effects of an abortion or preg/birth and then looking after a child. Its not like abortion or preg/birth are easy options. In contrast having to pay towards a child is small fry tbh.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 13-Apr-13 13:22:19

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 12:24:34
I can recall a man going to court when a woman decided to have an abortion, (I could google it but I can't be bothered), the man said if she was willing to have the baby he would happily bring the child up on his own. The court decided he should have no say in whether she kept the baby or not, however if she had kept it against his wishes the law says he must pay. To me that's not fair, your stupid post won't change my mind about that.

The court will have decided that it would be barbaric to force a woman through a pregnancy and childbirth against her will. A woman must be allowed autonomy over her own body, and there are still risks involved in pregnancy and childbirth to the woman's physical and mental health. The thought of a woman undergoing a forced pregnancy and childbirth, or an abortion for that matter, against her will fills me with horror.

MadCap Sat 13-Apr-13 13:22:34

5madthings has put the argument forward more eloquently than I ever could. Especially the last two sentences.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 13-Apr-13 13:23:33

Which thread was this, OP? Sounds awful.

MadCap Sat 13-Apr-13 13:24:31

I was specifically talking about her post at 13:06.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 13:25:26

5madthings, your right women have options, men have none, my point exactly.

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