New CAF and waiting list position

[ninani]

We just got our all our Reception application choices rejected and were wondering what to do since we can't travel every day to the school offered. It is way to far.

I would be very grateful if anyone knows details about waiting lists. The council says in the letter that we can make another CAF that will replace the first one and change the order of our preferences. Of course it will be after the deadline since all letters have been sent to all parents who applied on time (including us). I think we will have to forget our first choice altogether altghough it is within the catchment area.

1. If we place our 2nd choice as 1st will we have any better chances on the waiting list for this schools? Or will we get placed at the bottom of the waiting list since it is a late applications? I mean, if a new applicant enters the waiting list does he automatically go at the bottom of the waiting list or is he given preference according to his situation e.g. he lives closer to that school? We have already applied for this school, we just want to place it higher in our choices because the school offered is way too far, so we don't want to be treated as a new applicant, if it makes any difference.
   
   I have searched everywhere and I couldn't find anything on the matter. Any help will be greatly appresated

[BetsyBoop]

Your position on the waiting list is determined by the admissions criteria alone, it makes no odds when you apply or what preference position the school is in on your form.

It only time that is a bit "funny" - I think it might vary from LA to LA too as to exactly how they handle this (I'm sure prh47/admission will correct me here if I'm wrong) - is the (usually around two week) period when on-time applications are confirming (or refusing) their places, when if places come free they are allocated to on-time apps from the waiting list before the late apps are considered. Once the late apps are added into the mix then it is strictly by admission criteria order for the waiting list.

If you didn't get any of your preferences from first time round I would have though you would stand a very slim chance of getting them by reapplying. (You can ask - and some LAs do it automatically - to go on the waiting list for any school you applied to - the LA should be able to tell you what position you are in too once they have all the yes/no's back.)

Have you asked the LA which schools have places, to see if there are any other potentially suitable schools?

Also check what transport the LA will provide to the allocated school (assuming it is more than 2miles away)

I hope this helps a bit?

[BetsyBoop]

PS - schools aren't allowed to do "first preference first" etc - in fact they don't even know how you ranked them - so putting a school first rather than second would have not and will now make no difference as to whether or not you get in.

[ninani]

Thank you very much BetsyBoop! So our preference order does not matter on the waiting list. So no new CAF is not needed unless we want to add a new school.. and we don't. This saves us the hassle!

Could I ask then, does the same thing happen during the first round as well at which we were given that other school? I mean does the preference order only matters when you have been offered 2 schools (lucky people!)? I thought if another person down the road who lives further away from the school had ranked a school first while we ranked it as 2nd he would get it! Is it that distance counts over preference even during the first allocations round? If I was wrong all this time does it mean that we were not given a local school because simply we lived further from EVERY SINGLE other applicant who was successful for that school (or had a sibling, special needs etc)??

If this is the case then I don't know what to say! At least it's good to find out!

[BetsyBoop]

That's right, as I said before, schools don't even know what preference number you put them down as when your application is assessed.

The admissions authority (which is the LA unless VA faith school/foundation school etc, who are their own admissions authority) just take everyone who has applied and rank them according to their admissions criteria.

These ranked lists for each school all go back into the LA who do the "sums" and give you a place at the highest preference school you were above the full "cut-off" for.

It is quite possible for one child to have met the "cut-off" at all schools they applied for and therefore they get their 1st preference school (and this creates a "space" at the lower preference schools for the next ranked DC on their lists - if you think about it, it's quite a complicated calculation juggling the lists!) and others like your DC do not get into any schools they have applied for. This is all done before the offers go out - you only ever get offered one school (unless you applied cross-borough).

I hope that makes sense, it's difficult to explain

[ninani]

This is very useful as we will know better next time we apply for our next child. But it is depressing to know that we live in an area where we are at the bottom of the list for every single local school although we applied on time.

I thought that people who applied late were the ones to not get any of their preferences.

One last thing is, from what you are saying does it mean that since schools admit according to their criteria and then they send it back to the LA, does it mean that the schools are the ones who have the waiting lists BEFORE the LA gets them? The LA told us it would be not until mid-May that they would get they waiting lists which is not very useful!

Thank you anyway

[BetsyBoop]

The waiting lists are maintained by the "admissions authority" which is the LA unless the school is a Voluntary Aided (VA) faith school/foundation school, when the school act as their own admissions authority.

So if you applied for VA faith/foundations schools, the school will hold the waiting list.

If you have applied for community or voluntary controlled (VC) faith schools then the LA will have the waiting list.

There is always a bit of a hiatus from offer day until the admissions authority can tell you where you are on the waiting list while they deal with all the yes/no's from the on-time applications.

If you want to read all the gory details (and can't sleep one night!) you can read it all HERE

You should have also been given the reasons you didn't get any of the schools (eg last applicant accepted lived 510m away, you live 640m away, too far etc) - so check that they have definitely assessed your application correctly - otherwise you could have grounds for appeal.

PS, Once you find out where you are on the waiting list, one possible option to think about is to keep your DC out of school until they reach legal school age (term after they are 5) and hope that you get a place from the waiting list before then. You may have some idea, or the school may be able to tell you typically how much "movement" there is in the local area. There is often some movement before Septemer anyway & in some areas there is a lot of movement if there are reasons that some of the local population are "transient" or there is a large uptake of private education etc.

[prh47bridge]

Since she's invoked my name I'll just say that BetsyBoop is spot on!

It isn't always the people who apply late who don't get any of their preferences. It can happen to people who apply on time too if all their preferences are popular schools.

The delay to mid-May will be to allow time for parents to accept the places that have been offered. If any places are rejected they will be offered to the on-time applicants (which includes you). It is only when that process is finished that the waiting list officially starts to operate.

You mention catchments. If your LA operates catchment areas it is surprising that you haven't got into your catchment school. That raises the possibility that a mistake has been made, in which case you have grounds for an appeal. I would ask the LA which admissions category the last child admitted fell into and what distance that child lives from the school. You should also check the admissions criteria and the method used for measuring distance. If you find that your child should have been higher on the admission criteria than the last child admitted that would definitely be time for an appeal.

[CarGirl]

Does every county operate the equal preference thing though, it is very very new here in Surrey?

[BetsyBoop]

"equal preference" is a requirement of the schools admission code so it should be universal, or the LA/school are leaving themselves WIDE open for a bucket load of appeals...

[CarGirl]

That is good news Betsy!

[ninani]

According to schools they have catchment areas. One of them describes it on their website. The schools are heavily oversubscribed. On one school we live close to the catchment area border and many children who live quite further from the school have been rejected too. They haven't tols us why, or the distance of the last, apart from "everyone had higher priority" i.e. lived closer, had siblings etc. for every single school. These were the closest schools. We need to write to them they say so they will tell us the exact reason. But we applied on time and there are 2 more schools closer to our house. No luck there either.

People have to accept/reject their offers until 30 April. Mid-May is because of the elections I think, or that's how long it takes them to make the waiting lists.

Last year only 1 appeal at these 3 schools was ALLOWED in total! I don't know if it succeeded! We have already appealed on the basis that he was not given any local school but this does not seem to me to be a basis There could be lots more children on the waiting list before us. The LA has created extra places to some schools into a far away area more than 2 miles away and that's where they have given us a place. I think that's what happened to last year's children as well. Children their report which I found a few days agao said didn't turn up in September so their policy now is to ..chase them up so they take those remote places because they have nothing else on offer! If they reject them then they will be given the next available place which will be even further away I read in the LA's documents that the reason for this is that too many people enter the borough, an over 5% every year. And I think they come into our area. Many people have become quite racist because of it but it is the LA's responsibility to create places near us.

Our child was admitted at the nursery of our first choice so we thought he would "compete" again against the same children, same preferences. But on the book I read something about nurseries that they give priority to older children I think, like 3 years 7 months instead of 3 years 1 month to enter the nursery so his age might have been the reason? Last year we just applied through the school so I didn't know about this. Nobody told us this. It seems that this year he had to face ALL the catchment area children of his age irregardles of their age. Now that we found out it is too late but we had the illusion that ALL children had been included for his nursery placements last year. It seems like unless you live really next to the schools you have no chance for a Reception place.

We thought we lived near enough at least 2 of them so we don't know. I thought that we got rejected by the rest 2 schools because we ranked them lower but from you people have told me today it seems that only admission criteria matter

Anyway, thanks again. You are all very helpful!!

[CarGirl]

There is nothing to stop you going on the waiting lists of all the schools you are prepared to accept. There is movement over the holidays so even if you don't get in on appeal there is the possibility that he will get a place in one of them by September.

[prh47bridge]

For what it is worth, the appeal being allowed means it succeeded. If you request an appeal the LA has to allow the appeal to proceed.

It is indeed only admission criteria that matter. I'm a little confused as to what criteria were being used. Can you tell us which LA we are dealing with here? Are any of the schools involved in this faith schools?

[ninani]

You are right prh47bridge. The appeal allowed was the only appeal won. We haven't applied to faith schools.

Reading the LA's guidance book it seems clearer that you are all of you right about preferences only counting as a tie-breaker between two schools offers for 1 person and not 2 people. Which makes it even more shocking why we didn't get a single offer from neighbourhood schools. We phoned the admissions today and the woman on the phone was saying that if for example you move area you will need to fill another CAF to changes your preferences so you will go ..at the bottom of the waiting list (against what the admissions code says). And that the order of preferences matters because according to her if at your new address your preference 1 is not valid anymore (but preferences 2 and 3 are still within reach), because now the school that you want is your 2nd preference of your CAF this will be against you if a person living further away from you has put it as his 1st preference! I don't think you need to fill another CAF if preferences 2 and 3 of your old one already cover you. And living closer to the school than anyone else with the same priority, no matter when you joined the waiting list should cover you, irregardless of your preference. She wouldn't let us speak to anyone else from the admissions team because ..she knows and they are too busy. I just hope she was just an ignorant person who answers the telephone and does not make any decisions. And I also feel sorry for the people whom she advices and have no clue like I hadn't until a few days ago when I joined you!

[admission]

I can only say that this person does not know what they are talking about or is very poor at explaining the situation to you.
Could I suggest that you put anything you want to do in writing using email to the admissions team and get the reply in writing. At least then you have a written note of any other "mistakes" that are being made which can be bought up at an appeal hearing.

I would ask to be put on the waiitng lists for the schools you want, ask the reasons that you were not given a place at these schools and ask for your actual place on the current waiting list.

[prh47bridge]

I agree with Admission. I sincerely hope the admissions team has a better grasp of the rules than this person.

I would be interested to know which LA is involved. That may help us to give better advice. I am still worried that they may have made a mistake, especially given the quality of advice they are giving at the moment. Did you put your catchment school as one of your preferences?

[BetsyBoop]

ditto that the person on the admission team doesn't know what they are talking about...

When you say there are "catchments" do you mean formal catchments (where there is typically a map showing catchment boundaries & you are normally only in one catchment, or are we just talking about the area-round-the-school-where-people-typically-live-close-enough-to-get-in sort of catchments?

If it's the former, the admissions criteria normally give higher priority for children in catchment, so as prh47 said, it's very unusual not to get a place. Definitely check that they have assessed your application correctly.

[ninani]

The LA says that each school has neighbourhood which I think it is their way of saying catchment. Also when we went to both preferences 1 and 2 to ask for nursery places last year (he got into nursery but not reception this year) BOTH schools said that we were out of their catchment area. A few months later I saw on the website of our first preference that we actually are inside its catchment, we applied late to that school, but he still got a nursery place. Now that we applied on time and in 3 schools he got nothing. Is it because of age being taken into account for nursery? Now, my husband had studied at preference 2 which is actually closer to us so how can we be out of their catchment?

Also it is not guaranteed that you get a place if you are in the catchment area because so many families have moved into the area and the school is immensely oversubscribed. Until a few years ago relatives had their children studying there. Now it seems we are too far for them. They do give preference to the school neighbourhood, then by distance. But even within the school catchment we live further than many other children it seems.

Waiting lists to be formed in mid-May they said, I guess after they have received all the acceptances/rejections of applications so they know how many places are vacated for each school. We know of a few poeple who live a bit closer to the school than we do who got sent to other remote schools too. I also noticed the distance of the last child accepted last year was even closer to the school than I originally thought because they measured it in KM and not in miles

The woman on the phone said there were simply more people living closer to the school but no more details. The letter said "everyone else had a higher priority" and if we want details we have to write to them. SO we phoned them to ask if they could tell us the details and the woman was repeating the letter generalities and "that's the reason". She wouldn't let us speak to anyone else. The LA is Barking and Dagenham. In their book from what I read they should have processed it the right way.

[prh47bridge]

Your closest school isn't necessarily your catchment school (and yes, what Barking & Dagenham call a neighbourhood school is what everyone else calls a catchment school). That's fairly normal. However, whilst you are not guaranteed a place if you live in the catchment area, it is relatively unusual not to get one. Have you confirmed that one of the 3 schools you applied for was your catchment school?

You need to insist that the LA gives you details as to why you were refused admission. The generalities they have given you so far won't do. They will have to give more information than that if you appeal. I would try contacting them by email and again asking for a detailed explanation. Indeed, I would be tempted to lodge a formal complaint about the treatment you've had so far when ringing them. It really isn't good enough.

The suspicious side of me wonders if the reason this woman was so obstructive is that they've made a mistake and don't want to admit it, e.g. by putting you as priority 4 for your catchment school instead of priority 3. If they have that should definitely come out at appeal. However, I think it is more likely that she just doesn't know what she's talking about.

Do you know how far you are from your catchment school by the nearest available walking route?

[BetsyBoop]

prh47 & I share the same suspiscious streak

Put precise questions to them in writing (email is fine) - they should answer them even if it shows an error was made on their part. (Put it this way the appeals panel will take a pretty dim view if they don't answer your questions...)

[ninani]

We have applied to the closest schools. Our first preference was inside the catchment according to the school website but too many children live in the catchment area for that school and we live too far for them (close to the border). The school takes 120 children for its 4 Reception classes every year and last year no appeal was won for this school. So now they are full with children who just live closer than we do and they can't take more children even though we live in the catchment. And we are not alone.. After they deal with the catchment applications, then they consider distance, so in that respect we were given priority. The council want to remove catchments next year and just use distance. I think this would make our situation even harder.

Our preference 2 is a bit closer but I think we are not in their catchment area. Many other people have to take their children to remote schools like us because of this.

[admission]

Nanani,
You are unfortunately caught in a situation where the number of children living in the catchment area exceeded the number of places available in the school. For your catchment school they will have allocated places based on the walking distance to the school and unfortunately you have missed out because there are too many living closer than you to the school.

The fact that the school has 120 pupils in the year group in 4 classes of 30 indicates that any appeal will be under the infant class size regs. This in effect means that the LA has to have made a mistake with your application and you would have got a place if it had been processed properly. The fact that there were no successful appeals simply says that the panel did not think there were any mistakes made.

If the admission criteria has not changed then I find it rather puzzling because there is a major mistake in the current admission criteria, which you possibly may be able to use to your advantage. What it actually says on the Barking website is "Children living in the school's neighbourhood area at the date that child is due to start school." My question is how do they know that, do they have a crystal ball to know who is living in the neighbourhood area in September 2010?

It should have said living in the neighbourhood area on the date of places being allocated. As far as I can see no panel can accept that the places have been allocated correctly because it refers to somewhere in the future on that particular admissin criteria!

Oh boy are they going to have fun, as I have no idea what they do about that. I suspect they will have to take advice off the School Adjudicator.

[prh47bridge]

Has the LA actually confirmed that the children admitted were all in the catchment area (or had siblings or were in care)? From your previous posts I didn't think they had. I thought they had just said that those admitted lived closer to the school.

If the LA haven't confirmed that all children admitted were in priority 1, 2 or 3 and that your child was also priority 3, I would be concerned that your child may have been treated as priority 4 (i.e. not in catchment) instead of priority 3 (in catchment) for your catchment school. You need to get a definitive answer to that question from the LA. If they put your child in the wrong category that is a mistake. If they put your child in the wrong category and some priority 4 children were admitted that would be a straightforward win at appeal as your child would have been admitted if the LA had got it right.

Good spot from Admission. That's a huge mistake in the LA's admission criteria. I'd love to see what the panel make of that!

[3point14]

Does every county operate the equal preference thing though, it is very very new here in Surrey?

Give them a call. I phone them up, a nice young girl answers and she tells me what I want to know. She is very approachable.

[prh47bridge]

I agree that LAs are generally very helpful. However, you don't need to ask them this particular question. All LAs have been required to use equal preference for a number of years. It is in the Admissions Code and that has the force of law.