No offer from preferred primary schools

[jandcsmum]

Can anybody please help,

we found out on friday that our son did not get offered a place at any of his 3 preferred schools. What makes it even harder to swallow is our neighbour's daughter did get her first choice (which is the same as our first choice)- admittedly they are 3 doors closer to the school than us.

We, understand that the line has to be drawn somewhere. We also understand that an appeal is probably pointless.

Who do we chase re a waiting/reserve list. Is it the school or admissions?

Does anybody have any advice?

Thanks

[orangeplum]

Hi

It probably depends upon which borough you are in - contact admissions and they can tell you how far you were from the catchment area and where abouts on the waiting list you are. If 3 doors down have got a place its likely that you will get one eventually too as hopefully not everyone will accept their place - i had a friend who started at 22 on the waiting list and she eventually got the place she wanted in July just before the end of term. She also rang admissions ever 2 weeks to find out where she was on the list and they were always sympathetic to her.

Good luck and hopefully your place will come soon.

[jandcsmum]

Thank you- that is really encouraging.

So, is there automatically a waiting list or do we have to request to go on it?

Also, am I right in thinking that criteria for the waiting list is the same as initial entry, ie special needs, siblings. then distance?

[ImSoNotTelling]

The people higher up the list will already been in IYSWIM, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I think you have to tell them you want to go on waiting list. In fact I am fairly sure.

Good luck.

[orangeplum]

Hi - in the offer letter we got (which didnt offer us the school we wanted and in fact wasnt on our list at all) we were asked if we wanted to accept the place but still go on a waiting list for our preferred schools. We then went on the list automatically.

Criteria for waiting list is the same as you say special needs, siblings and then distance - hopefully all the siblings are already in the school now and the only issue might be a couple of special needs being identified because they didnt get a place. Fingers crossed you wont have to wait too long but do call admissions and ask them - they prob wont be able to tell you where you are on the waiting list until possibly a week or so after the closing date for accepting offers.

Where do you live? Is there a lot of movement in your area? We are in London so there tends to be a fair amount of movement with people moving out or going private if they don't get what they want hence the huge change in lists. Remember people put in their preferences last year so a lot of things can have changed since then!

Let us know how you get on.

[orangeplum]

Sorry not sure if my post was clear - you have to tell them you want to go on the list.

[jandcsmum]

We live nr Stourbridge in the West Midlands, and no, I dont think there is a lot of movement.

I guess we just have to hope that, somebody put down our preferred school as a fallback in case they did somewhere else?

We have been offered another school, but lets just say, that school is not an option...

Does anybody know if we do find an alternative school via admissions - not one of our 3 preferred, can we still be on the waiting list for our preferred 3?

[TrowelAndError]

You can stay on the waiting list for your preferred 3 and go on waiting lists for others. The LEA's admissions office should be able to tell you whether any other schools have places still to be filled. And, yes, waiting lists are ranked according to the school's admission criteria.

Appeals for places in reception are hard to win because of the rule on infant class sizes - see various other threads on the go about this - but not impossible.

[jandcsmum]

We would love to appeal, but don't think we have any grounds based on special needs, siblings or distance. Apart from the quality of our offered school, another problem we have is that my parents have to pick up my son on the days I work. My mom has to walk to pick him up as she doesn't have a car and our first choice school (which is also where he is at pre-school) is between our addresses and within walking distance for her but our allocated school is in completely the other direction. Would any of that been taken into account in an appeal?

[TrowelAndError]

Probably not, frankly.

Any appeal panel would listen carefully to what you say, but they may well question why your parents 'have to' pick up your son: is it really out of the question that (say) you use a childminder?

Grumbling about the 'quality' of the school won't clinch the appeal either. The appeal is about demonstrating that there has been some sort of error which has denied your son a place - claiming that the other school isn't good enough doesn't address that point.

I'm sorry to sound so harsh, but it seems a common view [on MN] that an appeal is about the quality/nature/location of the school that's been offered. It isn't. It's about positive reasons why the child should be admitted to the school where they haven't got the place.

Look at the websites of the DCSF and Advisory Centre for Education, which have lots of relevant information.

[RustyBear]

Yes, you can be on the waiting list for other schools even if you have found another school, and as orangeplum says, even if you are a long way down, you may well still get a place.
I work at a junior school & the initial list of places offered usually changes a lot by the time the children arrive in September.

However, you do have to remember that you can also go down the waiting list if someone moves into the area to an address nearer the school.

[jandcsmum]

Thank you for this advice,I don't think you are being harsh, it is what we feared.
If we did find and accept a place in a school that wasn't full, could we still be on the waiting list for the other schools?

[TrowelAndError]

Yes, you can stay on waiting lists even once your child has started at another school.

I think some schools wind up their waiting lists after a while, so you would need to check how each school handles it. One of our local schools holds waiting lists indefinitely, the other winds up the waiting list at (I think) the end of December, but parents can still make ad hoc applications for places and the applications are held on file until a vacancy crops up. If there's more than one application, they're prioritised in line with the admission criteria.

[jandcsmum]

Thank you all so much for your help.

This site is great - we feel much more positive now clearer on what to do next.

[cory]

Just to add to Trowel's posts, more for the sake of any other parent who may be reading: the appeal doesn't have to be about showing that the LEA have made a mistake: it can also be about showing that there are very serious social/medical/SN/emotional needs why your child has to have that particular school.

For you, the waiting list would seem the way to go. Though you may of course find that your dc settles happily at his allocated school and you end up not wanting to move him.

[prh47bridge]

The waiting list will be held by the LA regardless of where you are. It is worth ringing them to make sure you are on the waiting list for all 3 schools. You can ask to go on the waiting list of as many schools as you want.

Regarding an appeal, if your preferred schools have 30 children in each reception class your chances of success are small. Essentially you would have to show that the LA made a mistake and that your son would have been admitted if they'd got it right. That doesn't mean it isn't worth trying - appeal panels have been known to admit a child when the rules say they shouldn't - but you should be realistic about your chances.

If the school doesn't have 30 children in each reception class you have a better chance but, as TrowelAndError says, a case based on transport difficulties is unlikely to get you anywhere and even mentioning the quality of the schools is likely to turn the panel against you. I do know one parent who managed to get her child in on the basis of transport difficulties coupled with the impact on the child's social development, but in that case the allocated school was a long way from the family home (10 miles IIRC). You would stand a better chance if you could identify some need your child has which can only be met by your preferred school. That doesn't mean your child has to have special needs. You can think in more ordinary terms than that - can you identify anything that the preferred school has that the allocated school doesn't which your son needs.

[TrowelAndError]

Cory - Yes that's true in the generality of cases but for infant class size appeals (which is what I'm assuming we're talking about here) the panel has less scope for allowing appeals. Para 3.19 of the admissions appeal code stipulates:

3.19 Where a child has been refused admission to a school on infant class size prejudice grounds, an appeal panel can only offer a place to a child where it is satisfied that either

a) the child would have been offered a place if the admission arrangements had been properly implemented;

b) the child would have been offered a place if the arrangements had not been contrary to mandatory provisions in the School Admissions Code and the SSFA 1998; and/or

c) the decision to refuse admission was not one which a reasonable admission authority would have made in the circumstances of the case.

prh47bridge - Is it your experience that panels 'turn against' people who mention the quality of the other school? The point I was trying to make is that it's not a relevant matter for the panel to consider. Anyway, the panel will take it as read that the parents feel that the appealed-for school is a better one for their child, as otherwise they wouldn't have appealed.

[prh47bridge]

TrowelAndError - I overstated that (shouldn't post after midnight!) but shall we say I'm aware of some panel members who react badly to any mention of league tables or similar. As you say it isn't a relevant matter so I would recommend keeping away from that in an appeal just in case it rubs someone on the panel up the wrong way.

Just to expand on your last post, to win under point c you have to show that the authority has acted irrationally.

Appeal panels are human and make mistakes. Occasionally a child is admitted in an ICS appeal even though the requirements of 3.19 are not met. There is no appeal for the LA - if the panel admit a child when they shouldn't, the LA just has to get on with it. So it can be worth appealing even in an ICS case, but parents should be realistic about their chances of success.

[YellowPeril]

I'm sorry to bore anyone with further queries, and I'm sure this has already been answered and I'm probably looking for a "golden answer". My daughter did not get her preferred choice in the village which we live and we are five min walk away from the school. The allocation we have been given is a ten minute drive away and I seriously cannot see how I can get her there and get to work on time (essential to keeping a roof over our heads!). I also feel that she should be going to school with all the other children in the village and will only feel alienated if not. Are any of these grounds for appeal?? Yours desperately!!

[prh47bridge]

YellowPeril - I'm afraid the short answer is no, especially since you are entitled to get the council to provide free transport if the allocated school is more than 2 miles away.

The slightly longer answer is that it is always worth trying - you might be lucky and get a sympathetic panel. However, I would change the emphasis somewhat. You should concentrate on the damage to your daughter's social development by not going to school with other children from the village - that will be more persuasive than the transport problems.

However, as with the OP, it depends if it would be an infant class size case. If it is, the appeal should only succeed if the LA has made a mistake but for which your daughter would have been admitted to the school. You can still try but your chances of success would be low.

[TrowelAndError]

Hi, Yellowperil. I'd echo everything that prh47bridge has said.

If this is an infant class size case, you're going to need to demonstrate that there is some grave error/injustice in your child not getting a place at the school you wanted. You have nothing to lose by appealing, but it is likely that the LEA will argue that the class is full and (presumably) there are other children in the village who also did not get a place and that it is up to parents to ensure that their child gets to school on time by (eg) using a childminder for the school run. It's then up to you to refute all that.

Sorry not to be more encouraging.

[admission]

Most panels do not actually like doing infant class size appeals because they have such limited grounds for admitting pupils. These have been stated above but in effect it is only whether a mistake has been made, as the admission authority is extremely unlikely to have done anything that is so perverse as to be unreasonable in the eyes of a panel.

So appealants talking about other schools (positively or negatively) or their own personal circumstances are not taken into consideration by a panel when it is infant class size, it is all about have the admission authority carried out the process and the allocation of places correctly. You can as an appealant say anything you want and the panel will listen but legally they can do nothing to take them into consideration.

Yellow peril, is this a situation where it is an infant class size situation? I think that a village school, 5 minutes walk away sounds much more like a small school situation, where as PRH says major on the social interaction of the local school and also any real benefits in terms of after school clubs etc. The admission number for a small school is more open to different interpretations by panels. 2 miles to a school is not a reason for admitting to a more local school unless there are real medical reasons why the parents (not grandparents) cannot make the journey. But be aware that it could still be infant class size depending on how the classes are arranged in the infant end of the school

[YellowPeril]

Thanks for all your comments/advice. I've been investigating further and found a case where a class size was increased by 6 (!) for another school in the area due to local need (after appeals of course)and the same LEA. This has given me some hope as we are in a similar rural situation and there is no doubt that my daughter would suffer socially as it appears we are the only one's that live in the village not to get a place.

Also could somebody shed some light on the sibling rule - I know of a family that has been offered a place who live further away, however, the sibling is actually in the last year and will be starting secondary in September - does this still count?

Thanks again!

[prh47bridge]

The class size can only be increased in infants if there are fewer than 30 children in the class. If your village school has less than 30 children in each class your appeal will not be an infant class size case.

The LA is not allowed to allocate a place to a child on the basis of a sibling at the school who will have left by the time the younger child starts. So no, that doesn't count. However, there may be some other reason why the family further away was offered the place. It doesn't necessarily mean a mistake has been made.

[jandcsmum]

I've found out that the school we have been allocated as supposdly our 'nearest school with places available' isn't. One of the schools the admissions department mentioned as having places left (still not one of our choices, or a school we would choose) is closer. When I queried this I was told that they had been rushed off their feet and under pressure. As we were so close to being admitted (due to our neighbour 3 doors down getting in) , do you think it might be worth querying their original decision or just go on the waiting list? I'm a bit worried they might check and we end up further down the list!! What does anyone think?

[TrowelAndError]

There are several things you could do here.

For the school you want: You can ask them to confirm the furthest distance at which a place was awarded, and the distance between your home and the school as they measure it. That will give you an idea of how far outside 'the line' you are. You can also ask what place you are on the waiting list, but remember that you can go down as well as up if (eg) someone who lives closer to the school joins the waiting list.

For the school you've been allocated: You can ask for clarification of why you have been allocated a school which isn't/wasn't the nearest one with places. It sounds as if the LEA has (almost) admitted to an error but it might be worth asking them to put this in writing.

None of this prevents you from submitting an appeal, if you choose.

What will you do if you cannot get a place in the school you want? Perhaps you need to think in terms of which of these two schools - the allocated one and the (by the sounds of it) should-have-been-allocated one - you would be willing to accept.