Oh dear another incident

[izyboy]

Following on from my thread re aggressive incident on Wed. I have been called aside by DS's teacher today she said that he had been cheeky to her (wouldnt come out of the sandpit and then had a tantrum). Also 'wacked' his friend around the head with his cardigan the zip of which caught his mate on the head.

Teacher said that he was reprimanded but doesn't seem to be all that sorry.

Speaking to his mate's mum it appears that this was just a bit of unfotunate horseplay.

The teacher's aide tends to talk up these sort of incidents (as I have noted when DS has been on the other end of it). So I am beginning to find it hard to get it in perspective. Wondering if he is not understanding why he needs to be sorry because he did not mean to hurt his friend in the first place.

More concerned about the cheekiness, but his baby sister has been ill this week and not sleeping well possibly waking DS up in the night. He tends not to cope well when he is tired.

Anyway he did not go to the park after school as a punishment and had no tv. He was also made very aware that I was annoyed with him. Have parents evening next week and I would like to get to grips with all this. Is the school over reacting? Any suggestions on how to go forward with helping him, or should I just see this as an unfortunate week?

[Alambil]

an unfortunate week, I think

The best thing is that you're backing the school up - I've found with DS (6.5yrs) that this gets through a lot faster than just saying "oh well, it was just an accident" or similar

Have you discussed being sorry for accidents, even unintentional is kind etc?

Am not sure how old your DS is, but I'd just see how things go at parents evening and see what the full report is, because IME the isolated incidents of being called over can seem a lot more common (as in it feels like you're being called over every night - at least, I felt that way!) when they're happening like this than they really are in real terms if that makes sense

[izyboy]

It's getting to the root of the issue that is the problem, DS says he doesn't know why he has acted seemingly aggressively. I am therefore only punishing him (harshly) for intentionally hurting the two boys.

This is not helped by the TA's slightly dramatic approach to these things ...'other children were shocked and upset' by the incident. My friend said the TA led her son out and with a sad face said 'oh he's been hit and has a big bump on the head'. Her little boy later said it was just a bit of joking around, ds flung his cardigan at him and it accidently caught his head.

I am beginning to put two and two together and think it is silly, tired horseplay as opposed to malicious behaviour(he also didnt eat his lunches on both days so had little food).

Thing is you know the saying 'give a dog a bad name...' the school seem very quick to paint the incidents as malicious, before you know it it is a 'pattern of behaviour'... Yet only a few short weeks ago he was 'star of the week' for his kindness to others.

I am simply confused as to how to 'punish' the 'crimes' effectively and appropriately. I also wonder if it is worth looking at the incidents again with his teachers.

[izyboy]

He is 4.11.

[Alambil]

He's not even 5 yet - he's a baby, poor thing!

If he was in a pre-school group for example in a country where they don't start school til 7, this would be totally normal, age appropriate behaviour from tired kids, right?

I think they get tired whether they've had late nights or not really - they've been at school for 6 hours a day and getting information overload... it takes it out of them!

I think he's just being normal and I'd bring the am-dram techniques to the attention of the teacher rather than his behaviour (because THAT is normal IME)

[flummery]

At a month off five it's not unusual to be tired or fractious or silly. It doesn't need to be labelled malicious or yet seen as a patter of behaviour. However, I don't think it should just be written off as silly horseplay either. I've played incidents down when talking to another parent because I don't want to make them feel worse about it, I'm not sure that using the other parents reaction when she wasn't their either is the way to go.

The teacher and TA may seem overdramatic, but they're in the position of needing to make things calm and happy for all the children.

Lewis, I'm not sure that swinging anything at friends is considered age appropriate behaviour anywhere really. Even if there's no intent to hurt, part of the process of growing up is learning that it's not ok because it can lead to hurt.

[izyboy]

He's often coming home telling me that someone has squeezed his finger or neck. slapped him or pushed him. Although I make it clear he should tell the teacher if this happens, he already seems unwilling to do this if it is one of his mates that is the 'perpetrator' and I feel happy to let him deal with it like this as I recognise that school at this age can be a bit rough and tumble.. However it must be confusing as I have come down so hard on him when he has been seemingly corresponfingly aggressive.

I can count on one hand the number of times he has lashed out in real anger, he tends more to tantrums. I have usually been able to talk to him as to why he had hurt someone. He says he doesnt know why on both accounts this week.

He's lying on the sofa saying he doesnt feel well, maybe this is why he has been so unsettled this week. I think I'll give him a day off and see how he is at home today.

I just feel that I need to talk more about this with his teachers because it almost seems that as he is not normally boisterous, if he grabs another kid it is automatically malicious - I just dont think this has been the case this week.

[Starbear]

Only my humble opinion but I suspect you might be talking the problem up yourself.
He has now been rewarded with a day off school. This TA might need a 'problem' to deal with so it seems that she is hardworking and now she'll feel important with a major discussion around your son.
He seems very normal for his age.
Again in my humble a opinion. I would practice the following.

1. Bad behaviour seen and noted by adult.
   
2. parent looks into the matter
   
3. Feels the need to explain to child
   
4. appropriate punishment (which you did)
   
5. Explain to other cares this has been done (DH, Childminder etc..
   
6. Tell child it is over. The lesson has been learnt and move on without mentioning the incident again. (mental note only for you)
   What do you reakon? I would geniune like to know if my suggestion is valued

[Starbear]

Sorry can't stay on MN, the sun is shining and Ds is watching telly instead of us getting out there. Speak later.

[izyboy]

I value your opinion, it's well meant and not sarcastic! You may well be right about me talking up the problem! Yes I have already thought that he has had a hell of alot of attention this week whereas we usually bumble along in the usual manner of 'benign neglect' lol.

I suppose I really thought I'd nipped it in the bud, but I am not sure if there is much to nip, because I dont think he did any of it on purpose. His teacher really worried me the second time when she kept saying that he did not seem apologetic. Well I think this is because he was sorry but didn't understand the fuss as he didn't set out to hurt the boys plus is used to others behaving like this towards him.

I know what you mean about rewarding with a day off but if he is tired and unwell this when he is likely to tantrum. I prefer to let him rest and then start next week afresh.

[izyboy]

Quite right Star! Just to add, wild horses normally wouldnt keep him away from school he loves it.

[flummery]

Maybe it's not such a good idea to downplay the incident when someone slaps or pushes him. I don't agree with the idea that we should just accept that the early years are a bit rough and tumble, and do believe that ignoring it can lead to it becoming entrenched and a much more serious, and harder to solve problem, when it is finally tackled.

He might feel it's a bit unfair if you deal with the incident thoroughly when he's the 'perp' (and it sounds like you're dealing with that well) but are hands off when he's been hurt.

It could equally be that the lashing out, or boisterous behaviour, that he's demonstrated is in response to the grabbing and slapping. If his way of dealing with it isn't working as it leads to him being in trouble, then it might explain his reluctance to go to school.

Definitely talk more about it with the teachers - the more you know the better, and the quicker you can help resolve it. Good luck!

[izyboy]

Thanks flummery. As it happens next week is parents evening and although I had begun to view that with a sense of forboding after this week's shananigans, I wonder now if it might be the ideal time to put across a succinct version of the above.

Think I'll start a low key reward chart this week and maybe agree with the school that if he is appearing to seem tired he comes in a bit later. His sister is not a great sleeper and has been disrupting his sleep a bit - tiredness almost always leads to tantrums with him but not usually aggression.

[mistlethrush]

We have similar issues at times - but the teachers and TAs seem to be able to see through what is accidental and what is on purpose - accidental accidents happen at this age - child needs to say sorry for accidently hurting and that's the end of it (although they are also encouraged not to do whatever they did again). Intentional hurt is treated quite differently - immediately on time out. Accidents are not even reported to the parent of the perpetrator - and only to the recipients parent if it has left a visible injury - eg mine was playing with some large building blocks yesterday and was caught by the edge of one on his face - bit of a bruise, no harm done....

My son has been doing lots of pushing of boundaries this year - for instance, he knows that the TA doesn't have the authority that the teacher does and has once answered back and been cheeky - this seems to have settled down.

I work really closely with the teacher becuase I know ds is a handful - I reinforce the good behaviour at school, and I support them when they need to make ds understand that certain behaviour is not acceptable.

I would use parent's evening to get a good working relationship with the teacher - you need to share your concerns that some things are being over-played, but also work out with the teacher how to encourage good behaviour.

[izyboy]

Oh I am pretty sure both incidents deserved time out and reporting to me if only because he wasn't doing what he should have been doing.. sitting quietly and queueing. It's just that I leave these incidents feeling that my child has become someone I dont know - an unapologetic aggressor....when I am now beginning to think that he is just being tired and silly.

[ellingwoman]

Why does he think the TA doesn't have the same authority as the teacher? Unless the teacher is undermining the TA in some way in front of the class? Any disrespect shown to any staff in our school gets a stern talk from the HT. We are all equal.

[izyboy]

My understanding is that in the second incident he flung his cardigan at his mate but it was the zip that hurt him. The teacher thought that DS had initially slapped his friend because of the noise, but it was the sound of the zip.

So I am thinking yes, silly inappropriate behaviour but he didnt set out to cause injury. However he is meant to be very remorseful for this and because he wasnt able to say why he did it this seems to have compounded the crime.

[mistlethrush]

Elling - I think that's addressed to me - he knows that the teacher is in charge - therefore the TA is not in charge. However, I think that he has now realised that although she's not in charge, she is still a person that he should listen to carefully and behave for! He is not yet 4, so these things do take a bit of working out!

[smee]

izy, I was wondering whether you should maybe stop punishing him at home. If he's done something wrong surely the school punish him, so why double it up at home? Yes you can talk to him about it/ see what happened/ how he's feeling about it, but to punish him again seems a bit ott to me. If the teacher thinks things are worrying, maybe then you can agree on a system of monitoring/ communication, but until then, just allowing him to talk about it without fear of punishment would maybe help him work it through. + for what it's worth, I think you were right to give him a day off - they get so tired when they start school, and often that's when the trouble begins..

[izyboy]

Smee I know, I feel a bit draconian atm and I really lost my temper with him yesterday. He's so lack lustre today and just a bit stroppy. Last year he was a bit of a pain with his tantrums, he had a new baby sister and was sooo tired with starting nursery and dropping sleeps. I really try to monitor his tiredness levels but his sister can be very loud at night.

I am beginning to think that I am over egging this pudding, but you know how it is - youre called in and its all concerned faces and disapproval. The weight of expectation for you as a parent to do something miraculous feels immense.

I suppose I dont want this to be a regular occurance and for him to be painted as a trouble maker. He's so great with his sister and usually so kind to little kids.

[smee]

If it helps at all, one of the niceset boys at my son's nursery had similar problems starting school. He was getting into fights, and all sorts of battles. I couldn't believe it when his mum told me, as he's such a bright, warm boy. It took a while, but he's fine now. In the end, everyone thought it was all just a bit too much for him. I think school is for lots of them. Sounds like your son is doing well if he wants to go, has friends, etc, so relax. He's just finding his feet.

[izyboy]

You are very sensible Smee. I am sure that when he is 18 we will have had to 'discuss' so many other issues that this will seem like small potatoes. DS's class is 30 with alot of boys in it. He is also taught in a second language different to the one we speak at home, although I dont think this would have an impact on his behaviour.

[smee]

'tis easy to be sensible when it's not your child. I am a complete idiot when it's anything connected to DS...

[muppetgirl]

I agree with smee...

some things need to be backed up from home but some things don't.

ds 1 5 next week, had a week where he was mucking around in assembly. I was told and asked them whether they moved him (was told in a 'I tried to catch his attention, as did the deputy but he still carried on...' kind of woe is me way) nad they said no. He did the same the next day. I said to ds that his behaviour wasn't great but I feel that school have to get to grips with him. If he mucks about, move him, he then looses the right to chose where he sits. If there are no consequences for him he'll carry on. Me talking to him about something that happened hours earlier when I wasn't present and then making him stay in/lose out on something isn't going to help I feel.

FWIW your son sounds entirely normal to me!

[izyboy]

We've had a nice afternoon in the garden so far playing buggy bingo in the sun and reading a book. It has been nice to talk to him instead of reprimanding him. Think I'll take them both to the park in a bit. Thanks for your support Muppetgirl.

[izyboy]

Poor old DS we have got home from the park and he is shivering with a high temp. Obviously not well.