unconditional parents- how do you deal with reward systems in school??

[thisisyesterday]

ds1 is due to start school in september and on my big list of "things to worry about" is the kind of reward systems they may (or may not) use.

I have heard about schools using reward charts for good behaviour, and in some cases even having things like a smiley face chart on the wall where a child who "misbehaves" gets an unhappy face stuck up. or gets their name moved from a sunshine to a grey cloud.

I was just wondering how you deal with this really??? do your kids just accept that school have a different way of dealing with things? do you feel pressured to do it at home too?

[thisisyesterday]

anyone?

[nzshar]

DS started reception last month. His class has a traffic light system. You start on green get told once to stop whatever they are doing if not listening then moved to amber, again if doing something wrong and not listening then moved to red. This needs to happen twice in one week, in other words 6 warnings, then extra play is taken away on the Friday. The whole class starts afresh the folowing Monday on green.

This is very different from what happens at home. He is given 2 warnings then consequences happen eg computer time taken or no bedtime books.

He does not have any problem what so ever descerning between the two different approaches. At least I don't think so

[cherryblossoms]

Hello thisisyesterday.

Short answer - yes, dc are very good at dealing with different types of behaviour at school and at home.

No - we don't enforce it at home.

Longer answer - many schools have rewards systems and they vary quite a bit.

I've visited schools which have an ethos of recognising achievement and instances of good behaviour with things like certificates or letters. While it's clear that every child has an alloted number of certificates, the instance of good behaviour/good work is clearly set out and pretty individualised.

Personally, I quite like that. It sits well with my personal ethos of recognising good behaviour and telling dc what, specifically, is good about it.

Dc's current school has a system of stickers, awarded, mainly, for sitting still.

Frankly, I find that a bit harder and I'm afraid I just ignore it. If they were to ask questions about it, I would answer honestly. I wouldn't actively seek to criticise the school's approach because children are often enormously emotionally involved in their school.

It's tricky, though; when I see youngest playing at awarding herself stickers for having sat still for half an hour, I do shiver a little.

[kayspace]

Believe me, in Y3 they still get awards for that 'sitting still thing'! I rejoice when the proudly proffered school certificate says 'doing well at 8x tables'!

[nomoreamover]

I hate the smiley face thing and tbh wouldn't let him stay in a school that used it - we got subjected to it at his last school and it was soul destrying to say the least.....

[londonone]

What on earth is your problem with the smiley face thing, or with rewarding children for sitting still. Is it not obvious to you that a different approach is necessary when dealing with a large group of children than when simply dealing with your own one or two kids.

[FrannyandZooey]

bit rude londonone
some people believe these reward systems to be counterproductive - we can give more information if you are interested, but it sounds like you just want to have a go tbh

op my answer to the title is to home educate (not solely for that reason obviously!)
i think it bothers a lot of UP types

[piscesmoon]

I don't see why you have to deal with it at all-it is completely different in school.

[FrannyandZooey]

if what children learn in school doesn;t affect them, it would be a bit pointless them going
of course discipline methods have an effect on a child's outlook and motivation

[londonone]

FandZ - In what way is it counterproductive to encourage children to sit still in a classroom environment?

[FrannyandZooey]

LOL. great extrapolation there from what was actually said

the rewards are counterproductive as they don't actually motivate children in the long term to want to continue the behaviour that is being rewarded
the reward decreases their intrinsic motivation and they come to see the rewarded activity as less pleasant than they previously did

[cherryblossoms]

londonone - Good point. And one that friends have made when discussing it with them.

I will come clean. My dc were in a truly excellent school - and then we moved. New school adopts the smiley face/sitting still approach. I can see why. Historically, they had a reputation locally as a big, rough school, with a more "challenging" intake. Personally, I don't think the intake is in any way different from that at the previous school - but I may be wrong.

Having experienced what a school is capable of expecting and obtaining from its pupils, and having seen a different approach in achieving that outcome, I was a little disappointed at the slight lack of ambition that the smiley faces attested to.

My initial post was general, because the op is general; I have no idea what her school may be like. And I have no experience as to what other "smiley face" schools are like.

However, my own response to the whole smiley face thing is coloured by the immediate experience of my dc's current school. The school, generally, has an attitude of aiming for extremely low standards in every conceivable area. And, perhaps unsurprisingly, it achieves just that.

I have now visited quite a few schools, with a view to changing schools, and I can say that most schools are considerably more ambitious and imaginative in their approaches.

I suppose I am just a wibbly, liberal parent, with ridiculous, over-ambitious, utopian, notions of what "learning" can be, and am consequently a little depressed that my dc's school is obsessed, wholly, with rewarding and recognising only behaviour that I would regard as an absolute pre-requisite.

Amazingly, and happily, I have discovered that there are many, many schools that share my outlook.

All this is a little beyond the remit of the op. But it is why I, personally, have a slight problem with the smiley face/sitting still thing.

[cherryblossoms]

Actually, FrannyandZooey puts it all a great deal better than I have - less specifically and in fewer words!

Wish I'd touched on some of that but I'm just not that pithy (and as you can see, a bit wound up at the moment).

thisisyesterday - there really are schools out there, and many, many teachers who have adopted a really thoughtful attitude towards "rewards systems". It's actually a real lift when you encounter that kind of approach in a school. And, ime, it often goes hand in hand with a really great, vibrant approach to learning, in its broadest sense, too.

[londonone]

fandz - the problem is that you are assuming that all children can find some intrinsic desire to do what is required in school and that they will find all aspects of school intrinsically enjoyable or rewarding. This is not however the case either at school or later in life as an adult. I fully agree that home schooling is the way forward if you cannot support the school's systems. However I feel that a child home schooled and brought up in a "unconditional parenting" environment would be ill equipped to deal with life in the wider world.

cherryblossoms - thankyou for your explanation. I think perhaps you have to realise that not all children will come to school as prepared for "learning" as you children are and what you might see as the most basic of aspirations may be the end of a long road for some children.

[SlartyBartFast]

but surely you are talking about unconditional parenting.... which is just that.

does that mean you are against rewarding good behaviour??

i think they don't just reward the sitting still tbh, that would be crazy. and i think it is quite appealing to see all the reception children sitting bolt up right etc.,.. tryign to be sitting nicely. what is wrong with that.
obivously the rewards carry on for other things but for receiption children they are like pavlov's dogs, and on the whole want to be rewarded for conforming.

[twentypence]

School is school, home is home.

What works for you is lovely. It may suit the teacher better to use another method for the 30 children he or she has all at one.

Reward systems have never interested ds, so I haven't used them. He never gets as many points as the other children - but he doesn't care.

I don't think his teacher/school should scrap them just because I've never used them.

In my own music teaching I have some children who absolutely are motivated by getting a sticker and others who couldn't care less. So I give stickers to those that need them and save my money on those that are self motivated.

[nappyaddict]

just posting so i can come back to this later as i am interested in what UPers think about this.

[islandofsodor]

My ds is incredibly motivated by the traffic light system at school. He is very proud of being on a green light and does not want to make Mrs X sad by going on yellow or red.

In my drama classes we use smiley faces on a whiteboard. If the children do womething nice or try hard they get a smiley face. They see, to love it as it recognises their achievments however small.

I've not come across a child yet who doesn't love stckers.

[cherryblossoms]

londonone - I do realise that.

I think that is one of the reasons I was so disappointed with the "blanket" approach to rewards in operation at this school. All the children are rewarded for sitting still, etc. And clearly that is not, necessarily, the same thing for all the children. For some of them, it's a real achievement, for others ... .

Children are remarkably astute and they pick up very quickly when all of their class are being "rewarded" for the same, basic things. They also pick up, very quickly, if a "reward system" is being used for disciplinary purposes - however "soft discipline" it is. Which is, I think, why it is not, generally, the approach of choice in many schools.

Generally, cards on table, I'm rather inclined to FandZ's view. However, I really have seen, as i said, some really great, individualised "rewards", which really do focus on what a particular child has achieved, spelling out, very clearly, what was so great about it. It was clear that the child had been noticed and recognised, and the "reward" was for something that they, personally, had achieved, at their own, personal, level.

[cherryblossoms]

I've just read the "positive discipline" thread.

thisisyesterday - I've visited quite a few schools now that are staffed by people like the ones on that thread. Some schools are really positive, inspiring places.

[piscesmoon]

I think that it is quite different when you are trying to motivate a class of 30ish very different personalities than it is at home with your one or two personalities that you have known since the womb!
Yesterday I had 32 children doing practical work for science, we had water, sand, salt, sugar, powderpaint, filtres, measuring jugs etc while they all poured water back and forth. I needed to tidy up, efficiently and quickly and table points did the job! It made sure that there was team work and each group got a move on, without it a few kindly souls would have done all the work while the rest faffed about! Quite simply it works. Maybe they were tidying up for the wrong reason but I don't really care as long as the job was done. (some are never going to have self motivation to tidy up!)
I think that anyone is pleased to have recognition when they do well, as an adult you are pleased if someone notices-(at least I am).

[oregonianabroad]

I like the UP book. It helped me to revise my attitudes toward discipline and so on in, thus bringing more peace and calm to our house --definitely a good thing.

But I have had to reach to conclusion that, at least for my kids (esp ds1), that the UP approach has to be one strategy among other approaches. Although I tend to lean in that direction more often than not, when things have gone too far (e.g. when ds1 was shouting 'shut up' and 'stupid' at me in the car last night and I had given him several opportunities to stop and try using other words to express himself, and eventually told him he would be going straight to bed when we got home, after a chat with me about why we don't use those words). I think the school should have the same attitude, in other words, a bit of a balance depending on the situation, the temperament of the child, and the behaviour being addressed.

We are planning to send ds1 to a school that tries adopt a positive attitude towards specific behaviours, and I am satisfied with that.

[nickschick]

I think that also the teacher using the reward system can be 'unfair/unjust' in her attitude to it which can lead to n even worse situation.

For example my ds2 was at primary -they used a rainbow badge incentive 'rainbow children' got extra play were allowed desert seconds etc.

Ds2 and several others frequently lost theirs through no real mischief this 1 t/a was forever taking them away yet a child whose mother had confronted her quite aggressively kept his regardless ,now i can and did tell ds2 not to worry soon you will have a different t/a etc just behave.

Well ds2 thought up a way round it ........he bought another badge for a £1 and simply used that when the t/ took his it ws only on parents eve when his 'real' teacher said how well hed done eeping his badge all term that the story came out .

Personally as a nursery nurse and hving spent time as youth worker with teens I dont think you can beat the 'i didnt expect that from you- tomorrow is fresh start spiel'.

[nickschick]

Another teacher ds2 had, used to give out a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge bar of choc on a friday to the best behaved child - the one time ds2 'won' it he took it off him for not getting his spellings right .......guess who was in tesco buying ds2 the biggest bar of chocolate they had?......ds1 and 2 still talk about that .

[ssd]

what is unconditional parenting?