private vs state primary schools in cetrnal london- myths and facts???

[beforesunrise]

hello all, i am hoping to get lots of different points of view on my query, because i am quite lost, honestly. dd1 is 2.5 and we live in nw london, at the borders of a really affluent area and a not so affluent one. we are not british so finding it really hard to navigate the system and understand the truth.

the primary schools near us all have poor ofsted reviews- and most have huge percentage of refugees/sn. there's a rc within busing distance that has an 'outstanding' review, and i have already put her down for nursery there- no gtee she'll get in of course, although we are practicing catholics so fingers crossed.

i have also put her down for all the private schools in the area, of which there are many! and it's already cost me a small fortune in application fees (which annoys me no end). private school would be just within our reach financially, but would be a big sacrifice esp considering we have 2 dds. we would prob never move out of our flat and will have to forsake fancy holidays and cars etc- which of course we'd do for the sake of our kids but still- it also means dh would always feel under pressure to work really hard and bring home lots of money, which i think puts a strain on family too.

culturally and 'politically' i loathe the idea of sending my kids to private school from age 4, but i have been scared witless by all the stories i have heard, not just of really bad schools/kids not learning to read and write etc, but also by the claims that "unless they go to private school they will never get into a decent secondary" etc.

trouble is, much as i like the people who tell me these stories, they all send their kids to private schools so i never get to hear the other side of the story. surely it can't be so bad? and there must be decent state secondaries in london too?

please please help- i am confused. will start touring schools in september but would like to go in armed with a better idea of what to expect...

[margoandjerry]

OK, first question is where are you exactly?

I'm in central London and there are some good schools but mostly unavailable to me as they are church schools.

I don't want to send DD to private school from 4 for exactly the reasons you set out. I'm hoping to avoid that because there are good schools but you have to choose carefully. Depending on where you are it should be possible.

[beforesunrise]

nw6, south hampstead or east kilburn, depending on how you look at it :-)

[margoandjerry]

Brent or Camden?

Camden seems to have some decent schools. The Catholic bit should help you a lot with the good school.

I'm in Westminster where all the local schools are church schools but I'm not a churchgoer.

[beforesunrise]

thanks. do you know if there is any truth in the "not getting into good secondary" bit?

[beforesunrise]

i am camden btw

[margoandjerry]

I don't know about secondary schools but I am resigning myself to the possiblity of private school at secondary level (Westminster secondaries quite high up in the stabbings league ).

I think Camden is one of the better boroughs for education so I wouldn't write off the primaries.

I'm surprised all the primaries near you are poor. I'm in a similar area to you (I know where you are roughly) and there's usually one that all the MC parents congregate around (sorry for non pc language but that's how it is).

You do have to do some reading between the lines on Ofsted reports as well. Sometimes the ones with the slightly more able intake only get a "satisfactory" because they start off higher up and are making ok progress but could do better given the intake. But this would be ok for me. Whereas the schools with very needy intakes might be doing an amazing job in the circs so get marked up but you still might have concerns about sending your DD there.

This is the case in my area where the school with the best ofsted report has an intake where 75% do not have English as a first language. With the best and most multicultural will in the world, I want DD to go to a school where English speaking is the norm.

[frogs]

Bear in mind that the people who tell you this are forking out £12K a year per child, so have a vested interest in believing that they have no alternative.

The 'they'll never get into a decent secondary school' argument is a common one (if I had a quid for every time I'd heard that I could make a major dent in our mortgage). But it's bollocks nonetheless. My older dc went to a middlingly good primary school in Hackney, and my dd1 got into all the selective state and private secondaries that she applied for (Henrietta Barnett, Latymer, City of London, SHHS blahdiblah).

To be okay a primary school needs to be good enough, it doesn't have to be the best education money can buy. (That's what Prince Harry had, and look what good it did him). A school needs to be sufficiently orderly that the teachers can teach, children can learn, and children can feel safe. They don't have to be sitting tidily in rows (in fact too much tidy sitting suggests that the school are unadventurous or that they have a discipline problem and daren't risk more exciting work), but the classrooms shouldn't be full of kids hopping about like jumping beans with teachers struggling to make themselves heard over the din.

An okay school needs to have a reasonable number of children from supportive homes (ie. the parents value education and support the school. The size of their houses and the parents' accents are not good indicators of this). It needs good teachers -- a school with a body of older, more mature teachers is a good sign, a preponderance of younger, Aussie and Kiwi teachers may suggest that they have recruitment and retention difficulties. Find out how long most of the teachers have been in post.

You need to like the head and feel that you can share his/her vision. Imaginative school trips, good displays, an exciting range of after-school or lunchtime clubs are a good sign.

Wrt to academic standards, grab a handful of Y3 exercise books (children aged 7-8). By this age most of the class should be capable of writing reasonably comprehensible prose (more than just a sentence or two) with plausible spelling and punctuation. Joined up writing is a plus. Get the teachers to show you the work of the highest achievers and the lowest achievers in the class, and talk you through how they deal with that range. What do they do to motivate the higher achievers to push themselves a bit (many schools will just let them coast).

And so forth. It's not brain surgery. Go and look at a range of schools, even if the Ofsted is terrible it's the differences between schools that are telling. Find a couple of 'outstanding' schools and check them out, even if you're out of area, just to feel the vibe. Compare with some private schools you may surprise yourself by seeing beyond the glitzy facilities and come away feeling that it's all bit precious, pressured and you'd feel more comfortable with something down to earth.

Really don't panic. All kids really need to learn in the Infant stage (5-7) is reading, writing and basic maths, and you could teach them that yourself in a couple of afternoons a week. What you're after is somewhere they can be happy and where you feel in tune with the ethos.

hth

[margoandjerry]

also agree with frogs

[Bink]

I don't know Camden - but:

a) if you are practising Catholic, I think you don't actually have anything to worry about, in the long term. If you don't get an immediate nursery place, just stay on the waiting list, you'll get in eventually - London has a transient population and so long as you have the right mass-going credentials you'll be in. London has a number of good state Catholic secondaries, too.

b) being on the edge of a not so affluent area is actually a GOOD thing, state-school-speaking. Where the state vs. private divide is starkest is in the affluent bits of London where everyone who possibly can goes private, so that the state schools cater for a completely different group. In the not-so-affluent bits of London you get a much better social/parental-educational-level/cultural mix in the state schools.

[Bink]

[Anchovy]

FWIW, my DCs are at a small private London day school (for a variety of reasons that are relevant to our own particular circumstances) and I certainly don't think that that is the only or best way of doing it.

We have friends with DCs at the local state schools who are doing very well and all of whom (4 children going into 3 schools) have got into very good highly selective secondaries. So I really would not get swept up in the hype about "private or bust" at all.

You do have a bit of a card up your sleeve in the great school lottery if you are a practising Catholic (I am, but not practising, so it didn't help me).

[frogs]

I think bink is right re. mix of families. What you want is an area full of right-on, vaguely lefty, liberal guardian-readers, doing jobs that are interesting and worthwhile but don't really pay enough to afford private school fees easily.

Hence there are good state primary schools all about in all the obvious inner London boroughs -- Camden (particularly), Islington, Haringey, even Hackney. Those are just the areas I know.

If you're hell-bent on private secondary (or state selective secondary) you may need to top up with a bit of judicious tutoring come Y5. But honestly, ignore the scare stories from people who are paying £12k a year to avoid the perfectly reasonable primary school down the road, and go look for yourself.

[beforesunrise]

THANKS everyone, you people are wonderful. sadly i fit every one of the criteria that frogs lists, whcih i suppose comes through my op?

now my next questions: how do i know which ones are the good state schools worth visiting? and when do i start looking around?

[frogs]

Start with the schools local to you, and work your way outwards. Look at Ofsted and league tables, but remember it doesn't really give you the whole picture.

[nkf]

Go for the oustanding Catholic one. Ignore the ones with poor OFSTEDS.
OFSTED doesn't guarantee brilliance but it it rates a school as satisfactory then I reckon the school is often feeble the rest of the time.
I'm reluctant to buy into the "look at the parents" argument. Schools can get awfully slack when they think parents will counteract any failure with with private tutoring.

[nkf]

That said, I'm sure there are some feeble private schools but I don't know anything about them.

[Turniphead1]

I agree with Frogs. I am so laughing at the description of the "left-wing guardian reading...parents" - it is the description of about 70% of my local state primary that does really well and has lots of children who get into very good secondary schools (this is in haringey).

I would make the point that I would say that for the bright to super-bright child getting into a selective secondary should be ok following state primary with a bit of tutoring.

For the average to struggles a bit child - there is no doubt that getting into a private school from the get go might be the way forward (esp if it is the direct feeder to a private school). Problem is, noone really knows at 3/4 what they are going to be like academically.

We could have afforded private school fees but are doing local state Catholic and will save for private at 11 but hope that they get into state selective in which case we will all go on a f*ck off holiday and then DH and I will fritter all the rest of the money on a misspent retirement

[frogs]

Living in that area you're sorted for Catholic secondaries as well within distance for La Sainte Union and possibly Sacred Heart Hammersmith as well, and within manageable travelling distance for the girls' catholic grammar school in Finchley (which is fab vested interest alert!) -- where virtually all the girls come from state primary schools.

It's really not as much of a jungle out there as some people would have you believe, particularly if you have the option of church schools.

[motherinferior]

Yep, Frogs, that's us .

My children appear to be negotiating the state system pretty adequately. DD1 is seven and though I'm sure would do better at a very hothousy school is apparently doing damn well. DD2 is five next week and can write MY SISDU IS HORABLE AND I SOR CRASHING WAVS ON HOLADY, which I personally think is quite outstanding

And in both case it's sure as hell not parental input, so school must be doing something right.

[bamboostalks]

If you are in South Hampsted then you have The Rosary on your doorstep. Fab school with dedicated teachers. Save your money for private and concentrate on getting a good priest's reference.

[Mercy]

I love 'sisdu'

[Pollyanna]

my children went to a state school in NW3 - and lots of the parents lived in West Hampstead. I much preferred it to the local prep schools - I think alot of the children went onto the local indep schools at y7 (a few didn't get into any, but they were in the minority).

[bamboostalks]

What is 'sisdu'?

[milkmoustache]

talking about all this with my cousin, she mentioned something that Dr Robert Winston (you know - Child of our Time) said to the effect that: up until secondary school, the single most important factor is the education received by the mother. So if you had an OK time in the state sector, and are going to be supportive of your child AND her teachers, things should be fine.

I blame all these idiot journalists for whipping up panic along the lines of 'if you don't go private you are condemning your child to the seven circles of hell...'.

[me23]

I will be moving to westminster borough from camden central london side in a few weeks. will need to look for schools. st vincent de paul is supposed to be very good, I'm a catholic but dd isn't baptised, think the nearest non chuch school is millbank, anyone know anything about it?