Learning the times tables

[prettybird]

my ds has belatedly finally started learing the times tables. He is 7.8 and in the top "maths" group in his P3 class (equivalent of Y2 in England).

He has been desparate to learn the times tables for ages and has been being bored by the maths he has been doing at school (I have posted on previous threads fro advice as to whether we were being unreasonably pushy in expecting the school to be stretching him more).

As a result, we had started doing a wee bit of work with him at home - at his insitigation. We had been careful not to teach him by rote, athough we do have a times table chart up on the kitchen wall (and he is very proud of the fact that he knows 12x12! ). We made him work things out for himself - ie 4x3 was 4 groups of 3 that he needed to add together. I even added in "grouping" after a comment at school - ie 4 x 3 could also be seen as two grups of doubled up threes, ie 2 x 6. he was comofrtable doing thins like 4 x 5, 6 x 6 etc.

Having said that, now that he has started doing it "properly" at school, he seems to have gone backwards and totally lost the concept. His homework last night took a lot of effort for him to get right. Initially he was coming up with things like 6 x 5 = 28, 4 x 3 = 18.

It was all I could do to persuade him not to go into the kitchen to look up the table. Dh finally got him to work out using boxes of his wine tasting glasses and getting him to see that 5 x 6 was 30 etc(we'd love ds to tell his teacher how he worked it out, given that she has told the class that "God says that alcohol is bad and no-one should drink it" )

What can we do to support him in learning the times tables without undermining the school? How should we explaining it to him? is there a strange new technique that we are not aware of?

[stuffitllama]

He may not have gone backwards in terms of understanding, only in terms of confidence.

You sound like you're doing things so that he has a great grasp of the concept of numbers, which is fantastic. I prefer barging it into them by rote but agree it's confusing when there's a dissonance between home/school methods.

If he understands the idea of lots and groups, I would go back to rote practising and random practising, with the smaller numbers first so that he regains the confidence he seems to have lost.

But I'm kind of prejudiced in favour of rote times tables so you can take this with a pinch of salt!

[prettybird]

Both dh and I are both totally in favour of learning by rote, so we are using a lot of self discipline not to go down this rote (although we haven't taken down the poster in the kitchen, which has been up for years!)

We are trying to be supportive of the school, which we are very happy with (hence us backing off the rote learning) - but have had issues with his teacher this year who we feel has been very complacent and not stretched the kids. we know ds is not the only one who has been bored by "number time" - yet she keeps saying "But I have been following the curriculum". Yes, but not fast enoguh - and I know (via Mumsnet) that there are other "ordinary" P3 kids who have been doing times tables since before Christmans

But anyway, there are only 4 and a bit weeks to go and counting!

[cornsilk]

What's wrong with rote learning?

[prettybird]

It is supposed to be fine once they have grasped the concept. But first you need to be sure that they understand waht eg 5x6 means.

[cornsilk]

Oh.

[RustyBear]

Try these games for a bit of fun with tables - we use them at the school I work at - they do have a rather intrusive 'For Evaluation only' splashed across the screen, but if you like them you can buy them for use at home - the kids at school love all the games by these people!

[cornsilk]

We've got number shark. It's fab.

[prettybird]

Thnaks RustyBear - I'll try them. He already uses rainforestmaths.com which hen enjoys.

[prettybird]

BTW - when ds has grapsed the concept, dh is determined to teach him the times tables up to 20. To this day he is jealous of a school mate who had come from a primary school which did that and it meant he was confident with his muliplications beyond the 12x12 that we learnt

[prettybird]

Any thoughts from the lunch time crowd? Are we right in thinking he is now behind where you would expect a bright (at numbers) P3 kid to be?

[mrz]

We use these www.andrelleducation.co.uk/shop/product.php?id=9&interest=2&n_end=13&n_start=1 in school as a 10 minute warm up the kids love them

[ScienceTeacher]

You just have to learn tables - by rote/reciting/repetition. There are no shortcuts.

[RustyBear]

At the junior school I work at,the children who come up into year 3 & go into the top set would typically know 2x,3x,4x,5x, & 10x, though a few will know them all. Those in the lower set would probably only know 2x, 5x & 10x, or even less than this - the Government targets for Year 2 only include 2x & 10x (this is in England, the Scottish government may be more ambitious)

[TheFallenMadonna]

The problem I have with my ds (6) is that he can't get past the understanding bit and on to the rote learning bit. He works each one out in his head, every time. I've told him it isn't really maths, it's like learning a poem or the words to a song, but as far as he's concerned it's in maths and therefore it involves working out .

[prettybird]

Rustrybear, given that he only has 4 more weeks of P3 (Y2), and has only just (last week) started any times tables, that would suggest that he (or rather his group) are behind where one wold have expected him ot be at this stage.

He's doing 3x and 5x tables at the moment. he's known his 10 times table for ages - naughty daddy taght him that all he needed to do was add a zero to the number!

Scienceteacher - I agree with you about learning by rote. However, we have been told not to teach him by rote until he has understood what multiplication actually means. And althuogh I had thought, from the work we had done with him, that he did understand, last night's experience has made me doubt that - although dh and I suspect that there is somethng funny in the way that she is teaching them.

Previoulsy he could do 5x6 by adding 5 6 times. Yesterday he was coming up with 28 as the answer???????

[prettybird]

TheFallenMadonna. Must be frustrating for you!

[TheFallenMadonna]

Well, it certainly isn't the instant recall the teacher is looking for. He takes soooooo long! Rote learning definitely encouraged here.

[mrz]

www.googolpower.com/content/articles/math-finger-tricks-and-games-to-learn-and-practice-the-multipli cation-times-tables
or scroll down to Table Tricks www.andrewjeffrey.co.uk/freegifts.asp for a free download

[prettybird]

Ds is going to have plenty to practice with!

SInce his language isn't as strong as his numbers (although he has made good progress this year - but more to do with the efforts of the other teachers who work in the class) we have always wanted to maintain his confidence with his numbers as it makes all the differecne with enjoyment at school.

Last year he enjoyed number time so much (the "top" group were put into the P2/3 class), it's so sad seeing how little progress he has made this year and how is enthusiasm has suffered.

[stuffitllama]

it's a bit depressing isn't it

i don't think my dh understands the concept of numbers but at least he knows his times tables

[barnstaple]

I utterly sympathise and am tearing my hair out over dd's lack of table learning! There is no substitute for rote learning and 'grasping the concept' has been the despair of many a maths teacher over the last 25 years or so. Why do you need to grasp the concept of multiplication? You learn the tables, do the sums and one day you realise it's quick addition. Nuff said.

[prettybird]

Stuffitlama - I do hope your dh learns about numbers soon!

[MrsGuyOfGisbourne]

Agree re no substitute for rote learning for tables. My DC are very good at the concepts, but they learned the tables as a discrete exercise, separate from maths.

[stuffitllama]

The thing is prettybird, he just is hopeless at it. But he DOES know his tables because they were rote learned. If he was at school today he'd be lost. (Though I know in some areas they are bringing back rote-learning).

[prettybird]

So the concensus seems to be "ignore the school and teach him the times tables by rote"????