Are Scottish non-denominational schools really non secular?

[TessaTwo]

Because I'm confused, chose a non-denominational school thinking there was no predominant religion, now hearing the pupils are going to Church of Scotland services?

[ithaka]

Schools in Scotland must have acts of collective worship that are 'broadly christian' in nature. As the Church of Scotland is the national church, the local minister will often go into the school to deliver these acts of worship and there may be end of school type services in the local church. You have the right to withdraw your child from all religious services, but the school has no choice but to provide these acts of worship, regardless of the feelings of the headteacher.

[ilovepowerhoop]

mine also go to church services despite being in a non-denominational school. It doesn't really bother me and I did the same when I was at school.

[TessaTwo]

Hmm ok just assumed that non-denomintaional would teach about religion but have no predominant bias. Both me and hubby were brought up catholic but no longer practicing, so our only experience is of catholic schooling. Are they the same then but for a different religion? I had really been hoping for a more rounded education on different religions rather than a bias towards any one but looks like that is not an option open to us in Scotland?

[MrsMaryCooper]

Our primary school goes to the kirk at easter and at christmas for carols. That's about it. You can withdraw your child if you wish - they send a message out about it beforehand.

It was the same when I was at school. They do stuff for Diwali/Ramadan/Chinese New Year in school too, just don't go out to a different location.

[AMumInScotland]

Non-RC schools in Scotland are a lot less "religious" than RC schools are, but they are not completely secular. They usually have a tie in with the local kirk and use generally Christian hymns and prayers etc for their collective worship.

However they are not meant to teach your child that there is one religion that they ought to be following, and they are supposed to be open and encouraging to other faiths and atheism/agnosticism.

They also do not teach the children anything like the RC catechism, or prepare them for confirmation, or anything like that.

So it is not the same as RC schooling.

RE will also be about comparative religion - ie teaching about religions rather than assuming you have one.

[TessaTwo]

Thanks for the replies, so it sounds like its not as extreme as the rc church but still definitely still a religious bias. I don't agree with separating school based on religion, why segregate at such a young age? Which is why I opted for non- denominational, though looks like in doing this I have just opted for 'the other side', rather than a unified alternative. I find it quite depressing that in this day in age all religions and cultures are not being represented equally at school.

[AMumInScotland]

This link gives the current guidance to schools, and highlights the fact that "religious observance" is meant to be separate from ordinary assemblies etc.

It also says "Religious observance ... should be sensitive to our traditions and origins and should seek to reflect these but it must equally be sensitive to individual spiritual needs and beliefs, whether these come from a faith or non-faith perspective" - so, in theory at least, a non-denominational school is not "Church of Scotland", but it's likely that the religious observance is going to be heavy on Christianity and lighter on other religious influences and general "spirituality".

Personally, I don't think that school is the place for religious observance - if you want to raise your child in a faith, then take them to church/temple/whatever and show them the importance that you place on it in your own daily life. But I don't think Scottish non-denominational schools are too bad in general, and they do at least teach about other religions reasonably fairly. You certainly haven't just chosen the 'other side', you've chosen the 'much less dogmatic but still assuming its a basically Christian country' side.

[JollyPurpleGiant]

It totally depends on the school though. At my second primary school I cannot remember any CofS minister at assemblies etc, although there was one came to my first primary school.

We were taught about about Easter and Christmas but also about Diwali.

It would be pretty unheard of for a school to not celebrate Christmas, which would be required if they were to be truly free from religious bias.

[prettybird]

Depends on the school. Ds went to a very ethnically mixed primary school (60% ethinic minorities - inner Glasgow) and as a result "celebrated" Christmas, Diwali and Eid. They visited the local mosque but I don't recall them every visiting the local church.

At his secondary school (slightly less ethnically mixed), they do have a church service at Christmas (last day) that the pupils can choose to go to. I only found out about it at as it was mentioned at a Parent Council meeting in January. I asked ds if he had gone - he said, "Why should I, I'm not religious?!" given that we've never gone to church, what did I expect I suppose I should be grateful that he was actually at school on the last day of term before Christmas

[TessaTwo]

The more I think about this the more annoyed I get. Basically in my catchment I have the option of sending my son to a Catholic school which is really an exteme very catholic school or a so called non denominational school which in my area is in fact a Protestant school. Why should I have I make him an 'outsider' by excluding him from religious observance am I being unreasonable to be annoyed by this? No wonder we have such a catholic/Protestant divide in glasgow

[Roseformeplease]

I teach in, and my children attend, non denominational schools in Scotland. There is NO compulsory worship and RE is optional. We do carols at Christmas and that is all. It really depends on the Head. These are not CofS schools but genuinely non denominational. Any visits from the minister (rare) are balanced by visits from the priest. We alternate churches at Christmas time. We have no visits from other religions because there are none locally but they would be made equally welcome. TBH I think you are over-reacting.

[TessaTwo]

But don't you think Euphemia that if we stop segregating kids at the age of 5 then their generation would at least grow up to see that they can be friends with people of the other religion?
Maybe my non denominational school is extreme, but the principle is the same, why are we forced to choose one Christian religion over the other when sending our children to school? Why don't we have the option to choose 'neither'

[TessaTwo]

Roaeforme, your school sounds like the school I imagined for my son, where he could learn about many religions and decide in his own time whether he wanted to follow one. I feel a bit cheated that my own catchment school is not like this

[SingingSands]

Tessa, I think you are going slightly off track. Choosing a school is not about segregating children. If you are a Catholic and would like your children raised in the faith and supported at school then that is a valid parental choice. My friend does exactly that and yet our kids still play together and we don't "segregate" them!

[SingingSands]

Also, just because your "other choice" of school is not Catholic, does not make it "Protestant". Can I presume from your comments you are in Glasgow?

[ilovepowerhoop]

we have a combined campus school-one Catholic and the other non-denominational. The children are split for lessons but share the playground and dinner hall. A good idea I think. I am near Glasgow.

[JollyPurpleGiant]

In Aberdeen there are 3 catholic schools. The rest are non denominational. You need to make a conscious decision to send your child to a catholic primary if that's what you want.

There are no specific catholic secondaries, they are all in together :)

The non denominational schools are definitely not protestant. They are just not Catholic.

[weegiemum]

My dc go to school in Glasgow - they all have assembly weekly but "religious observance assembly" once a term. They really don't like it, but that's mainly as its mind-bogglingly boring (I've been) and as they are used to going o a lively, interesting, child-friendly community focused church, assembly is just one more thin to sit through!

[exoticfruits]

How can non denominational be secular?
There seems to be a huge misunderstanding of the term.