Why are ukip so bad?

[Jumblebee]

Apologies for the thread title, it probably makes me seem very thick and uninformed (although I am!)

I have read a lot on mumsnet about ukip and the general consensus of them is that they're idiots and so are the people voting for them. From what I've read on google I've only found information about them wanting to abolish inheritance tax and national insurance, but of course many of the pages on the Internet have not detailed all their policies.

I'm afraid to say I have no clue about politics and have ashamedly never voted before. Everytime I see someone posting on Facebook I about how they support ukip my first thought is "silly", just from what I've read on mumsnet.

Could someone please list their policies for me? I have heard that they are for scrapping maternity leave and holiday pay but I've not read anything about this on google. Basically I'm just wanting to know why the major population of mumsnet hate ukip, so that I feel justified in my opinion of "silly" ukip supporters!

[BerniceBroadside]

Their manifesto is available on their website. They're more or less the BNP in suits.

[TheHammaconda]

It's not silly to look into what a political party stands for. Just bear in mind that some supporters will have their own ideas about UKIP. Some will try to tell you what to think and how to vote.

There's an interesting website called Pocket Politics that allows you to compare political parties policies from the 2010 election. That might be a useful starting point.

[Jumblebee]

Just read the "What we stand for" section on their website, they seem very stuck in the past with their "take back control of Britain" talk!

[TheHammaconda]

Sorry, some Mumsnetters

[Jumblebee]

Thehammaconda thank you for posting that link, it's really useful! I know very very little about any political parties so it's good to have it briefly summarised!

[LtEveDallas]

Here is a link from their mini manifesto in 2010 (one of the only ones they haven't deleted) southcambsukip.org.uk/ukip_mini_manifesto_201004_v01.html

Take note of the maternity, paternity, congregate communities and social housing lines.

[Jumblebee]

Thank you for the link Dallas! I couldn't see any mention of the maternity leave on the manifesto, I must have missed it. I did a bit more googling and found this:

www.unionstogether.org.uk/blog/entry/ukip/

They want to cut maternity pay to £64 per week?! That just seems ridiculous to me

When I was on maternity pay I was better off by over £150. Now I'm back at work 16 hours per week and we budget like crazy to make sure we have enough money each week. Even now we still get £100 per week, and with 1 child I think it will be manageable (only 3 weeks back at work so we'll see in a few months) but if we had more children we definitely wouldn't survive on £100 per week, never mind £64!

[niceguy2]

Basically BNP UKIP are the acceptable face of racism.

They're praying on people's fears of other cultures and races to gain votes.

Nigel Farage is an awesome politician. He's the sort of guy you could see yourself having a pint with.

The rest of his party though seem more like racist muppets.

[Spinflight]

"Everytime I see someone posting on Facebook I about how they support ukip my first thought is "silly", just from what I've read on mumsnet."


Hmmm...

Mumsnet appears to be full of liblabcon party activists smearing or misrepresenting UKIP. Indeed there are some thoroughly nasty and indecent types on here, all of whom appear to hate and fear UKIP with a vengeance....

Generally they just link to other sites which misrepresent or smear UKIP and it's supporters or post quotes from ordinary members rather than official policies.

Increasingly facebook too, though obviously there are for more likes for UKIP than the old, failed, parties.

This isn't surprising for a number of reasons however it isn't really my style to respond to the crazies...

Fundamentally UKIP is libertarian and promotes small government and self determination. In other words what you do, within the law, is none of the state's business - quite the opposite of the liblabcon's obsession with trying to control and nanny every aspect of our lives.

In particular UKIP sees equality under the law as the defining principle of governance. Hence if we did have a specific policy on maternity pay ( we don't ) then it would have to be equal for men and women.

We distrust the entire political class and seek to get ordinary people into positions of power. Hence doctors running the NHS, old soldiers forming defence policy etc. Frankly there is no difference between a labour millionaire with a degree from Oxford and a tory one, they know nothing about our lives and show nothing but contempt for the common chap or chapess. They also tend to be blissfully and ignorantly incompetent as they have no experience of the real world or a proper job. In short, we aren't too keen on professional politicians of whatever hue...

We believe in free trade, especially with our cousins in the commonwealth, and that the North East and Wales are just as important as zone 1 in London.

All of UKIP's policies are under review and will be released in a manifesto before the next general election ( same as it is for the other parties) so I can't give you any links. Previous policies however include Grammar schooling, removing minimum wage earners from tax entirely and a flat tax to replace income tax and NI in order to eradicate avoidance.

[MissMarplesBloomers]

Spin are you Mr Farage???!

What's with the royal "we" ?

[Spinflight]

Idiocy on my part MissMarplesBloomers I'm afraid...

I don't speak for the party, merely seeking to inform.

[goshhhhhh]

Because they are happy to be bank rolled by this man....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-handed-fresh-embarrassment-as-backer-demetri-marchessini-claims-theres-no-such-thing-as-marital-rape-9308272.html

Because if you disagree with them publically on something like twitter and express an opinion that is not in anyway libellous or breaking the law they get the police to go round and see you and ask you to take it down. (More fool the police....& I wonder about the data protection act....)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-free-speech-row-police-tell-blogger-to-take-down-legitimate-facts-taken-from-official-eurosceptic-party-policy-9358196.html

I could go on.....they are quite frightening really - the only good thing is they are getting people to pay attention.....and shaking up the other parties...

[ttosca]

JumbleBee-

Here are a couple of run-downs on why UKIP are so horrible:

Is Ukip a party of bigots? Let's look at the evidence

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/02/ukip-party-bigots-lets-look-evidence


Voting UKIP Is Not a Protest, It’s an Own Goal

www.scriptonitedaily.com/2013/05/04/voting-ukip-is-not-a-protest-its-an-own-goal/


Extending the vote to women and the middle class was a mistake

www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/05/13/strip-public-of-the-vote-says-ukip-candidate

[ttosca]

Of course I'm trying to convince you to not vote UKIP.

I'm doing that because I think UKIP are a nasty, reactionary, bigoted and racist party, and I think that if they ever come anywhere near power they will make a whole lot of people's lives a whole lot more miserable.

They're not an 'anti-establishment' party. They ARE the establishment.

Fascism always takes root when politics is at a crisis point, and the establishment needs to recruit members from the struggling middle-class and unemployed and completely screwed over working-class.

Fascism provides an escape route for the establishment - look! It's those bloody foreigners! It's the Bulgarians! The Romanians! The Jews! The Gays! It's their fault you have no job and your wages haven't increased in three decades! It's their fault your taxes have gone up but your public services have been privatised and have become both more expensive and more shit.

Don't believe the hype.

If you want to give the middle-finger to the establishment, don't vote for an establishment party - including UKIP.

[Spinflight]

"Fascism always takes root when politics is at a crisis point, and the establishment needs to recruit members from the struggling middle-class and unemployed and completely screwed over working-class. "



Here we agree entirely... Facists require an emergency to cement their power and inflict their views, by force if necessary, on the population. They require repressive state machinery to control dissent and a cause to rally people to them. Libertarians seek to remove the levers of power such that fascists cannot prosper.

Fascism is in fact the diametric opposite of Libertarianism. Controls on freedom of speech, the erosion of civil liberties, preferred status under the law for party members and a compliant, controlled puppet press are all hallmarks of fascism which we have either seen recently in the UK, or seen the beginnings of.


Frankly I have little or no interest in the gutter insults and petty link spamming which passes for debate on here. I live in the real world and, like most people, make my own mind up.

The assertions which are constantly made about UKIP members are easy to test - in the real world. If as ttosca makes clear we are, "nasty, reactionary, bigoted and racist" then it is a simple matter to check by merely talking to someone from UKIP or a party member.

If you do I suspect you'll find yourself in better company than you expected.

[Spinflight]

Addendum: You might even start wondering what sort of a person gives up their free time to shout insults at such people...

[Isitmebut]

Ukip: When their ‘poster girls’ see the light, how much longer before the rest of the country does – and Farage gets rattled? Not long actually.

“I can't campaign for Ukip any longer, says party's 'future face' Alexandra Swann over concerns with immigration stance”

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rising-ukip-star-alexandra-swann-protests-her-own-partys-stance-on-immigration-9244746.html

“A woman who was heralded as the “future face” of Ukip says she can no longer face campaigning for the party because of their illiberal stance on immigration.”

“Alexandra Swann was supposed to represent the party's new, younger membership when she publicly defected from the Conservatives at Ukip's spring conference in 2012. Nigel Farage introduced her to a jubilant party faithful, boasting: "I'm very pleased to say that the Swann has migrated to Ukip".
“However, it seems the Swann has migrated again. She told The Independent: "I can't bring myself to campaign for them."

“The party's increasingly incendiary rhetoric on immigration has pushed Ms Swann, 25, away. She says: "The focus moved to immigration. It was difficult with the anti-gay marriage stuff. Now so much of their argument is anti-immigration which didn't sit well with me.”


"The party deliberately attracts the racist vote':Ukip poster girl tipped by Farage as 'rising star' quits over 'terrifying' lurch right.”

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2627408/The-party-deliberately-attracts-racist-vote-Ukip-poster-girl-tipped-Farage-rising-star-quits-terrifying-lurch-right.html

• Sanya-Jeet Thandi urges supporters not to vote for party anymore

• Hit out at ad campaign which claimed 26 million migrants after British jobs

• Claims Nigel Farage has let party descend into 'form of racist populism'

“A UKIP poster girl described by Nigel Farage as a ‘rising star’ has quit after describing it as a ‘racist’ and ‘terrifying’ party that she cannot vote for.”

“Sanya-Jeet Thandi, 21, a British-born Indian who had starred in a party election broadcast and spoken at its annual conference, accused Ukip of deliberately attracting racist voters.”

“The university student said the party had abandoned its core supporters and called on others to end their memberships and boycott the upcoming European elections.”



“Ukip spin doctor forced to intervene as Farage falters in disastrous radio interview”
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-spin-doctor-forced-to-intervene-as-farage-falters-in-disastrous-radio-interview-9387776.html

“Nigel Farage’s image as a plain speaking-politician suffered a severe blow today, when he became so rattled on live radio that his chief spin doctor intervened to try to bring the interview to a halt.”

“In a tense 22-minute confrontation on LBC, the Ukip leader looked increasingly uncomfortable as he was asked about his views on race, on “idiots” in Ukip, and his parliamentary allowance.”

[ouryve]

Spinflight - as soon as you suggest people that disagree with UKIP's policies are "nasty and indecent" you've lost me.

Nasty and indecent is suggesting that aborting foetuses at high risk of Down's syndrome should be mandatory.

Nasty and indecent is suggesting that a man is perfectly entitled to rape his wife.

Then there's this muppet with his blatant islamophobia and almost hilarious assertion that Catholicism is, somehow, the answer
www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/15/ukip-islamophobia-row-john-kearney-catholic Particularly eyebrow raising is this bit:
"He also alleged that Britain is "a country run by sexual perverts who delight in child abuse", something he partly blames on Muslim teachings."
Yeah, because child abuse never happens in the Catholic church.

UKIP's own members make it very hard for me to see them as a credible party, before I even get anywhere near a manifesto.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Not sure I'd vote for them, but as I said somewhere else today much of what you hear about UKIP is spouted by people who haven't really looked at them but just parrot what they read in the tabloids.

Notice that when UKIP say cut immigration they are racist, but when the Tories promise the same thing it is a wise and thoughtful decision.

When UKIP say they want to leave the EU they are mad/stupid, but when the Tories promise a referendum on leaving it is a good thing.

[ttosca]

SpinFight-

The assertions which are constantly made about UKIP members are easy to test - in the real world. If as ttosca makes clear we are, "nasty, reactionary, bigoted and racist" then it is a simple matter to check by merely talking to someone from UKIP or a party member.

Indeed. We've heard quite a lot from UKIP members and councillors, and it's easy to see that how nasty, reactionary, bigoted and racist they are.

I concur with SpinFight - go talk to UKIP members. Talk to as many of them as you can. Ask them how they feel about immigrants, gay people, people of colour, Muslims, and basically anyone who isn't a White Christian heterosexual.

Fascism is in fact the diametric opposite of Libertarianism

UKIP aren't a Libertarian party. Libertarians believe in the free movement of people. They also don't bash gay people, coloured people, homosexuals, etc.

[ttosca]

Back

Not sure I'd vote for them, but as I said somewhere else today much of what you hear about UKIP is spouted by people who haven't really looked at them but just parrot what they read in the tabloids.

No, we've looked at them very closely. We've looked at their policies, and we've looked at what their councillors and members have to say - and we've concluded that they're racist deluded nutters.

Notice that when UKIP say cut immigration they are racist, but when the Tories promise the same thing it is a wise and thoughtful decision.

UKIP don't just say 'cut immigration'. They make racist and offensive remarks about immigrants, foreigners, and people of colour. And yes, many Tories are racist too.

When UKIP say they want to leave the EU they are mad/stupid, but when the Tories promise a referendum on leaving it is a good thing.

No, they're both stupid.

There is a great deal wrong with EU institutions, but the Tory scum and UKIPers are motivated primarily through nationalism, xenophobia, and wanting to remove the few remaining rights which the British still have.

[claig]

A very wise article by a very wise man, Peter Oborne, in the Telgraph.


"Meanwhile, British party democracy has collapsed, along with the post-war economic model. All political leaders have embarked on a muddled and pitiful attempt to discover fresh modes of leadership and political expression.

Only one politician seems to be entirely at home in this post-democratic landscape. There is a paradox about Nigel Farage. In an era that has been stripped of familiar signposts, he might have walked straight off the set of an Ealing comedy. Dickens would have loved him. There has been no Axelrod figure lurking behind Mr Farage, trying to make him say the right things or wear the right clothes. He has advanced to his position of unprecedented public influence on his own terms. Voters sense this and respect it .

For many years, the Ukip leader was ignored by the mainstream media. In the 2004 European elections, Ukip marked its first major breakthrough, winning 16 per cent of the seats. However, the BBC marked the party down as “other” in its news report the following day.

Now that Mr Farage can no longer be ignored, he is sneered at instead . Even so, it looks possible that next week he will come top in the national vote. This will be a truly astounding achievement. No political party in modern history – not even Neil Kinnock’s Labour in 1987 – has come under such sustained attack and misrepresentation. Mr Kinnock at least had The Guardian and the Daily Mirror; Mr Farage cannot boast a single national title, and several papers are running vendettas against him. Mr Kinnock was treated reasonably fairly by the broadcast media. This is not the case with Mr Farage: consider the lacerating contempt shown towards him by Channel 4 News and its chief presenter, Jon Snow. Nick Robinson, the BBC’s political editor, has also abandoned his usual fairness when dealing with the party."

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10830882/British-politics-is-broken-and-only-Nigel-Farage-is-profiting.html


The reason that everyone is against UKIP, that every party, every paper and every puppet are against them is because they are the people's party and not the establishment's party.

Every politically correct progressive and media employee is on ull alert to try and damage the people's party. But none of it is working, because the people are wise to the puppets.

There is panic in establishment circles, puppets' strings are being pulled so hard because the situation is desperate - the people are about to win, we are witnessing the death of spin.

This is historic. We have seen nothing like it. The people are backing the people's party, the spinners have thrown the kitchen sink at the people and the people's party, and everything the puppets have tried has boomeranged on them.

The spinners' party is over, their gravy train is up, luvvies in charidees will start having to earn their fees. It's over. Spinners will be crying in their beers as the people will celebrate with cheers.

[claig]

All over teh world, people want change. In India's election, millions and millions of people turned out to vote for change and the Congress party establishment which has ruled for nearly 60 years has been thrashed in the election.

All over Europe, people want change, and it is the same here. People want truth, an end to spin. They want morals, no more sleaze. They want ethics, no more dodgy expenses. They want politicians, no more puppets.

"No political party in modern history – not even Neil Kinnock’s Labour in 1987 – has come under such sustained attack and misrepresentation. Mr Kinnock at least had The Guardian and the Daily Mirror; Mr Farage cannot boast a single national title, and several papers are running vendettas against him."

Nothing can stop the people. No puppet is capable of stopping the public will. It is time for change.

[ouryve]

Notice that when UKIP say cut immigration they are racist, but when the Tories promise the same thing it is a wise and thoughtful decision.

Nope. Don't like the Tories, either. And I don't routinely read tabloids. I, like any others, form my opinions based on the things that people say. If what they say is racist, disablist, sexist or just plain bloody stupid, then I don't need a journalist to tell me what to think about that.

[ManWithNoName]

People seem to be totally misunderstanding what Fascism is because they think it is something to do with Hitler and xenophobia.

There is in fact a lot of fascist tendencies in politics today among mainstream parties.

Fascism is essentially defined by the close and wholly toxic alliance of the party and big business interests. Big business does what Government tells it to do. In return business gets monopoly control over markets and special favours. Government controls business and the economy - hence the term national socialism. Society becomes strictly stratified along class lines, there is a political elite and the very wealthy. the middle class is destroyed.

Fascism and Communism are enemies only because they want to achieve the same ends by different means. Control over the economy and over people's lives.

UKIP as others have said is libertarian. It is against communism and fascism. It wants power for the people. It does not want or seek big government.

UKIP terrifies all the other parties for this reason both left and right.