Does anyone know why UKIP want out of Europe?

(33 Posts)

Dp found out today but surely it can't be true? All that money shock

When I say found out, he probably read it on their website? He's not here so I can't ask him. But am sure that's what he said?

Eskino Sat 04-May-13 11:46:09

I thought that was their raison d'être. Isn't that why they are called UK Independence Party?

Bowlersarm Sat 04-May-13 11:47:28

That is the whole point of their existence. United Kingdom Independence Party. They want to cut away from the control Brussels have over us.

Yes I know I mean the amount of money we pay to Europe. It sounds astounding if it's true?

I suppose I mean the reason behind them being UKIP.

tiggytape Sat 04-May-13 12:03:00

Hence the name (independence)
They were formed as the party that wants to lead Britain out of Europe. This isn't one of their extra policies - it is the whole reason they exist.

As to why they want this - well mainly so the UK can govern itself in areas that the EU currently control - a main one being border control and having the ability to limit immigration in a way the UK cannot do whilst remaining part of Europe. There's lots of other reason they give too for wanting to be out.

Bowlersarm Sat 04-May-13 12:04:01

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying you're not surprised there is a political party who wants us to leave the eurozone because of the amount of money we pay in?

I'm surprised at the amount, I didn't realise it was so high.

lljkk Sat 04-May-13 12:23:59

Look at the terms that Norway & Switzerland have to sign up to if they want no trade barriers and free(ish) labour flows with rest of Europe. They still end up paying a huge amount of money but they have NO SAY in how it's spent. This is what UKIP want Britain to do, too. It is not a case of withdraw from Europe and pay nothing more into EU.

Thanks for that lljkk. Dp did mention that Norway and Switzerland aren't in but they're also very expensive places to live in aren't they?

lljkk Sat 04-May-13 12:36:05

For Norway-type relations with EU, UK would pay about 3 million, maybe half of what it currently does to the EU (but with no say on regulations that UK would have to follow).

The best estimates I can quickly find is that Switzerland pays about 250 million euros/annum into Europe at the moment, but they don't have the same worries about manufacturing exports access because of nature of their economy (not same worries as Britain would have, I mean). Swiss population = 8 million, so suggests £1 billion annual payment for UK if UK wants a Swiss-type relationship with EU.

I'm reading completely contradictory things about whether the Swiss HAVE to follow EU regulations in many areas. I think the short answer is legally no, but practically yes, because they can't market things in EU that aren't EU-regulation compliant.

lljkk Sat 04-May-13 12:38:11

Eek, sorry, typo in last, should have read £3 billion on top line, not million.

Sorry, Xpost, I suppose they are expensive but for reasons that probably don't have to do with EU membership, different tax regime, for instance.

NSWmaybe Sat 04-May-13 12:40:02

More to the point, does anyone know how UKIP plan to do anything with Europe with their local council seats? Planning and youth services aren't really part of their agenda.

PetiteRaleuse Sat 04-May-13 12:40:13

It's not as if our money goes to the EU and gets poured down the drain though. Most of it comes back in grants, investment, subsidies, cheaper products, lower export costs.... I agree that the cost of the EU parlialent needs to be brought down but on the whole we benefit enormously from being in the EU.

PlentyOfFreeTime Sat 04-May-13 13:12:11

Until a few years ago UKIP was a single issue party. The only policy was to leave the EU.

UKIP stills wants to leave the EU.

It all boils down to the question of 'what is a country'.

Some of the things that any country should be able to do are:

Set its own tax rate
Control its own borders in terms of who it admits and who it refuses entry to
Should be able to defend itself
Should be able to make its own laws
etc, etc etc

Many of those things we are no longer able to control as we have lost the sovereignty over these issues when we derogated powers to the EU.

So, we no longer fully control our own borders as we must admit any person who is a citizen of a fellow EU country. That's why there's this fuss over the entitlement of additional Eastern Europeans to come and live here from 2013.

We no longer make all our laws as we have to accept that EU law takes precedence over UK law unless we explicitly opt out of specific EU Regulations.

So, according to UKIP the criteria that underpin the ability to call yourself a self-determining country are being dismissed or removed by our membership of the EU and the only way to recover that sovereignty is to leave the EU.

The UK pays £53million pounds a day for EU membership. The waste within the EU is depressing as it has vast armies of bureaucrats on huge salaries at a time when Cameron is drastically reducing the UK Civil Service in terms of numbers and conditions. The EU has also failed its audit for several years - so there are questions about where the money has actually gone. It's wasteful in having to up sticks and move between Brussels and Strassbourg every year which wastes millions in terms of manpower, transport and disruption.

UKIP also dislikes the fact that many of these EU officials are not elected. They are appointed by their Govts (e.g. Kinnock, Chris Patten, Peter Mandleson etc). That means you and I have no say in their appointment and cannot vote to remove them - a democratic deficit according to Tony Benn's test of:

What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you use it? To whom are you accountable? How do we get rid of you?

Cameron seems to think we can negotiate with the EU to cover that lost sovereignty and still remain in the EU. But he's running out of time for negotiations before the next election in 2015 and any referendum on any revised membership terms would have to take place post 2015 by which time the Tories will probably have lost power.

UKIP has now expanded its manifest from the single issue of leaving the EU to encompass a whole host of traditional Conservative ideals (grammar schools etc) in order to appeal to a wider audience.

flatpackhamster Sat 04-May-13 13:12:45

lljkk

Look at the terms that Norway & Switzerland have to sign up to if they want no trade barriers and free(ish) labour flows with rest of Europe. They still end up paying a huge amount of money but they have NO SAY in how it's spent. This is what UKIP want Britain to do, too. It is not a case of withdraw from Europe and pay nothing more into EU.

For Norway-type relations with EU, UK would pay about £3 million, maybe half of what it currently does to the EU (but with no say on regulations that UK would have to follow).

That isn't correct. 80% of the money that Norway pays in, it pays in voluntarily in order to participate in the EU's research programmes.

Interestingly, in some fields we would have more influence. Some areas, like fisheries and agriculture, or vehicle safety, are increasingly managed at a global level by UN legislation. Norway, as a sovereign nation, has its own representation at the meetings to discuss the legislation. The UK is represented by the EU. We have no individual membership at those meetings. See Dr North's blog on the subject for more information.

flatpackhamster Sat 04-May-13 13:14:56

lljkk's post is an excellent example of the sort of half-truths and dissembling that the Independent Britain campaign will be fighting when the date for a referendum is established.

Thanks everyone for all this information.

I really am interested and unbiased. I'm not a UKIP member trying to highlight their plus points but am wanting solid answers.

I used to be staunch Labour, mainly as was brought up mingling with the councillors, my mother worked for the Labour offices. Then LibDem member but have left them now. Now I'm in limbo.

One thing I did notice the other day was the leader of UKIP being interviewed by the rudest interviewer ever! He'd asked him a question then just as he (NF) started to answer he (presenter) would get all arsey and butt in hmm I think he was trying to be Paxman but failed miserably.

Dawndonna Sat 04-May-13 18:26:33
lljkk Sat 04-May-13 18:35:25

I actually hope you're right, Flatpack, about my "half truth" arguments. Because if it goes to referendum it's pretty obvious that UK will pull out. sad

tiggytape Sat 04-May-13 18:43:14

lljkk - I don't know as they would pull out. It is possible the government will set any referendum to say the result won't count unless 60% or 70% turn out to vote (which is a huge figure in terms of voter turnout - the average for London Mayor and local elections is around 40%).

You might get a 52% turnout who all say yes but it won't be acted upon.

And we won't get any referendum at all unless the Tories win a majority in 2015 which is hardly something anyone is banking on.

Although unworkable IMO, wanting out of Europe is one of the more palatable policies of UKIP. Removing maternity rights, increasing spending on defence, increasing tax for low earners are the policies I have more of an issue with.

That and their members posting pics on twitter of Nazi salutes, and one member advocating compulsory abortion for disabled foetus's.

Basically if you aren't a high earning, straight, white male then life would be much harder for you if UKIP were in power.

Abortion for disabled foetuses? shock I didn't know that.

flatpackhamster Tue 07-May-13 10:34:47

It was one bloke who was suggesting that on his personal website,and when the party found out they gave him the boot.

Of course the leftists have been having a field day with it, trying to imply that it's party policy when it isn't. But it's all about play the man and not the ball, because if you tried playing the ball you'd have to come up with reasoned arguments in favour of rule by Brussels and mass immigration. And if there's one thing they can't do, it's reasoned argument.

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