A diatribe against organised religion

[Twiglett]

I find churches, synagogues, mosques etc some of the most unconnected places of spirituality in the world

The connection appears to me to be between congregations and the traditional rotes and your place in the congregation

I do not believe that man's interpretation of the word of God handed down from man to man and embellished by man after man into a series of rules, rituals and social niceties has anything to do with a spiritual connection

don't get it, grew away from it, don't understand it

don't like the hypocrisy, sense of superiority and looking down their nosed-ness

don't like the feeling of isolation and 'sympathy' that is emoted towards me whenever I visit my family (who are in the main a part of this kind of life .. but with their own internal hypocrisies firmly in place)

pah!

[morningpaper]

I would answer but I'm late for church

[Twiglett]

heh heh heh

[Kenneth]

Agree mostly except don't even know what "spirituality" is. And don't believe there is a word of god so makes organised relgions even more barmy to me. But, hey ho, people like rituals...

[morningpaper]

actually I'm bunking off to read yesterday's papers

[suzywong]

I agree with you Twig, apart from the family bit.
It's all about control, pure and simple

[anorak]

Know what you mean about 'sympathy', Twiglett.

I hate it when Christians tell me they will pray for me because I lost my faith. Even if I ask them not to, I know they will. It's like telling me there is something wrong with me and the fairy they believe lives at the bottom of their garden is the one who can fix me.

All it does is give the person praying a sense of superiority.

[glitterfairy]

I totally agree twiglett and dislike the organisation of the church especially. The whoile thing feels alienating to me. I saw Eddie Izzard once do a whole diatribe against the church of England and agreed with everything he said. Singing hymns in dreary voices.

I also think that a creed based on rewards in a life away from this one is wrong. We shoudl do good to others because we want to not because we will get a reward somewhere else.

[Papillon]

I like how Nick Cave sings hymns and hes got a dreary voice

[glitterfairy]

Always the contrary one Paps!

But then you like the streets as well! (so do I but not dreary hymns, some hymns are great of course)

[Papillon]

Yes I should have been named Mary

saw this quote yesterday and think it fits "perceptions" that aren´t open to alternatives or even contrary ones. They need some oil-in-one!

If you cling to an idea as the inalterable truth, then when the truth does come in person and knock at your door, you will not be able to open the door and accept it.

-Udana Sutta
From "The Pocket Buddha Reader,"

[SlightlyFamiliarPeachyClair]

Kinda agree.

Can't do organisee religion myself: surely if God (if he exists) created me in His image then he created my mind as able to make decisions / know how to follow rules myslef?

Also have found (some) Churches to be the least understanding places on earth.... such as the one where Sam (SN) was told off in mid sermon for making a repetitive quietish noise

HOWEVER Quaker servceis I find are very spirtual and accepting a,d the one Mosque I have visited seemed very spiritual- the readiong of the Qur'an was beautifully done, really inspirational.

Personally, I feel that any God who jdges us on how much we worship Him has an attitude problem I can't respect or identify with anyway. A decent God, the one I like to think would exist (not ure if there is one or not) wuld judge purely on kindess, generosity and love, not ability to attend a building once a weeka nd do flowers.

[nearlythree]

Difficult one, this. Don't know too much about other faiths, but I've left the CofE myself. However, there is no getting away from the fact there are some amazing people who serve God through it. There are estates in this country where no post is delivered and no bus driver will go, and yet there is always a parish priest, having the vicarage broken into and the church vandalised, holding services for three old ladies each week, burying the dead, trying to start a toddler group, a drop-in centre, maybe even a youth club. And there are people like my old priest who gave up his salary and worked for free in order that an inner-city parish could use his wgaes to employ a curate.

But then I think of the beaurocracy, the prejudice, the constant in-fighting and politicking. And I think of the dogma and of being told what I must think and believe. I think of the obsession with buidlings, and the immoral amounts of money lavished on them. I think of the smug, self-satisfied church to which I used to belong. And I could weep for the people who give so much and who really do represent Christ-like values and who are let down by the majority.

I don't go to church any more because I want our children to grow up in a just Christian comminuty, and so far I've not found one - it certainly isn't the CofE. I want them to be encouraged to question and experience God, not to be taught to parrot liturgy and creeds. I want them to be free to be themselves in church, not expected to sit still or be bored. I want them to enjoy being with God, not see it as a chore.

Ghandi once said something along the lines that the whole world would become Christian, if only Christians were more like their Christ.

[MaryBS]

Twiglett, I sympathise with what you are saying because there are so many churches that seem like that.

Don't cast everyone in the same mould! I am tempted to say "I hate people that make generalisations"

Its taken me a long long time to find a church I'm happy in. No, its not perfect, it doesn't have all the answers, and some of the people can be really irritating. However the Vicar is what I would call a Christian (and I don't say that about all of them!), and he has a good sense of humour, some would say twisted, and we get on.

I used to be a Catholic, and about half of my family still are, and a lot of the screw-ups in my life have been a result of being a Catholic. There are still some good people in that church though - just a lot of misguided people.

[glitterfairy]

But then what is a real Christian? Surely there are examples from all faiths of siritual people who put others first adn live their lives concentrating on the good that they can do for others rather than on what they can get for themselves? IS that not what we mean?

There is no need for an organisation in order to live this way but if it helps then fine. I loathe rules and woudl be the first to challenge them so organised religion is not for me.

[arfishymeau]

I know three deeply religious families.

One is the coldest, most unfriendly couple I've ever met. They used to regularly threaten to spank me or their daughter when I stayed with them (under 10 years of age). They scared the living daylights out of me, but were committed christians who went to church 3 TIMES on Sundays. Their daughter used to cry herself to sleep and left home at 15 pregnant to escape from them.

The next couple (my best friends parents) are born again Christians who run a Christian bookshop. They open the bible every day and live their day according to the first phrase they read. They are deeply intolerant of gays, children out of wedlock (my friend was not allowed a boyfriend, she had to get engaged before she could introduce her boyfriend to her parents), make-up, modern clothes - my friend had to live a secret double life, changing clothes after she left the house.

The last one is another friends husband. He's Catholic, hugely into his church, yet he's locked his toddler into a cupboard as punishment, given my friend a black eye and threatened to kick her in the stomach when pg with her second.

Actually, I've also remembered that my MIL is a born again Christian who does missionary work in Africa, but who has never seen two of her grand daughters because she was offended by the mothers behaviour (in my case the heinous crime of going out for the afternoon one weekend when she visited).

I haven't seen any 'Christian' behaviour from any of them. It's why I'm refusing to bring my DD up in any faith.

[SlightlyFamiliarPeachyClair]

Glitterfairy, you make a lot of sense and Arfishy that's sad and not unheard of I am afriad .

My own experience is that I was raised atheist, went to Christianity after I went to church as a Brownie and at one stage was training as a Guider and takin Baptism lessons. However, I lost faith rapidly. The Vicar admitted to me that she held the same views as I on many things (specifically that only God had the right to judge people, and that Christians who discriminated against Women, gay poeple, whatever were missingt he point); yet she knew the opinion would cause trouble so she kept quiet about it. Um, prsonal integrity??? Then because I could not attend classes for Baprism every week (SN child) she barred me from Baptism. There didn't seem to be a lot of Christian behaviour in the congregation either; a particulalrly judgmental grup, in fact. Then after a few world disasters I just couldn't see that a good God could allow things like the Tsinami to happen, sisn't make sense to me.

My own personal take on it is that Jesus was a great man whose example should be followed by all who wish to lead a good life, and I do try. Which seems to mean accepting ALL people regardless and trying to live with love. The Church itself doesn't seem to do that, and when you look back at the history of the Church well it's not exactly a straight line from Christ, is it?

[blueshoes]

Have to say I agree, Twiglett. I can just about keep my faith in God (Christian - can't really comment on other religions) if I don't get involved in Church life.

As it is, my family only attend church very occasionally and don't socialise or chat with any of the other congregation. But the priest is very nice and gave us a lot of support when my dd was ill.

I just don't like it when groups of people get together and all that clique-ishness gets mixed up into things - which I have no patience for. I just avoid it

[glitterfairy]

It makes a difference if the vicar/priest/rector is a person with whom you can share some beliefs and opinions. To me that is part of why organised religion either does or does not work.

I guess if you find someone who appears to lead a godly life and to exemplify the things you believe in it is all easier. The problem is that those people are few and far to find in the Chruch as a whole when they get to be in charge of things. There is a certain arrogance which I find difficult to accept in some of these people. Obviosuly there are those whom I admire but my experience has been that few live up to the ideal I have as a humanist let alone in a spiritual sense.