The Qur'an

(16 Posts)
Hanikam Sat 12-Jan-13 11:20:45

Thank you sooo much CrescentMoon!

There's some great links here which I will enjoy in peace this evening IA.

That verse katieval quoted is so often taken out of context. It was doing the rounds on Twitter yesterday, minus the "but if they cease" part.

I'm sure there is a Quranic verse against those who deliberately twist words but I can't remember where it is.

Quoting half a quote is like saying "la illah ha" - there is no God
Without adding "illAllah" - except Allah

In other-words, misleading, dangerous, and downright trickery. It's when people who should know better search for a juicy bit of to text to give credence to their own point of view. They use the Quran like a pik n mix, taking what they want and ignoring the rest. And we, the naive and trusting, listen to the sheikhs and scholars, believing them to be more knowledgeable than us.

I'm not saying they are all a bunch of crooks, just pointing out that even a goat can grow a long beard!

crescentmoon Sat 12-Jan-13 09:36:30

and these verses are not just about religious persecution. the early muslims were first ridiculed 'look at those crazies', then accosted 'you cannot pray here', then boycotted 'no one is allowed to trade with you', then had property confiscated 'these peoples homes are now ours', then some were killed 'say you will turn back to the old Gods or you and your family will be killed', then others were driven out of their homes 'you are no longer to stay in Mecca', then were chased when some emigrated across the red sea 'give us back those refugees', then when they went to the city of Madinah the people who sheltered them were also attacked 'if you harbour them you also will taste our swords', then they were given permission to fight their oppressors. that is what the muslim knows about when those verses were revealed.

crescentmoon Sat 12-Jan-13 09:11:21

yes nightlurker that is how i would read those 4 verses also. if one is quoting those verses to try to justify the 'mad mullah' stereotype then all they will say of verse 190 is

verse 190:
"Fight in the way of Allah..."

not the whole verse:

verse 190:
"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors."

of verse 191 cutting and chopping will leave you:

"And kill them wherever you overtake them..."

not the whole verse:

verse 191:
"And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and persecution is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

they will not mention any of of verse 192:

"And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

and of verse 193, which is what katieval quoted but even then not in full all that will be quoted is...

"Fight them until there is no persecution and worship is for Allah"

when actually the whole verse says:

verse 193:
"Fight them until there is no [more] persecution and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors."

context is very important, both in keeping the verses intact, then in relation to other verses they refer to, then in the full message the quran is actually trying to explain, then in the historical context.

nightlurker Fri 11-Jan-13 21:52:43

crescent, as someone reading those scriptures for the first time, my interpretation of those you brought up earlier is as follows:

Do not start wars. If someone attacks you, you have the right to defend yourself. When they leave you alone and allow you to worship, stop fighting (don't seek revenge). If they attack you and take land or possessions from you, you have a right to take it back. From verse 190, when you must engage in war, do so as honorably as possible, spare life where feasible and don't commit war crimes.

I don't personally interpret the scripture to support the retaking of land that was ever in Islamic power. It sounds to me that it's more about something happening at that particular time, not a perpetual mandate for centuries to come.

I believe the goal of verse 193 was to give permission to Muslims to fight to protect their right to religious worship. It was about their own right to worship, not about spreading religion with the sword.

crescentmoon Fri 11-Jan-13 15:23:55

salam alaikum dear hanikam i really liked the first chapter you quoted surah al kafiroon as well, it was my easiest one to memorise.

as for "there are those who say we don't need anything except the Quran, or the Quran is the answer for everything. Well, err, actually not cos as you say, many verses refer to a specific event in an oblique way. And interpretations have changed over time, often for politically expedient reasons."

i totally agree. the quran was revealed over a period of 23 years and in response to different situations and developments. many of the verses are showing history as it was happening and its important to learn even that just for our own understanding of the context of the verses.

heres a really great article by Sheikh Abdul Hakim Murad aka Sheikh Timothy Winters on the origins of suicidal terrorism.

bombing without moonlight

he's a fantastic historian and authority on orthodox islam as well as a sufi sheikh (i remember you wanted to learn more about sufism on the other thread). he used to come often on radio 4's thought for the day. his bio here...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Winter

here is an extensive article on how the word jihad appears in the quran....

what does jihad mean

and for muslims and non muslims here are 15 top misquotes of the Qur'an. and the muslim translations and orthodox exegesis on those verses. it goes into the history of when the verses were revealed and a little on the great hostility the early Muslims faced in arabia which was the reason for those verses being revealed.

15 misquotes from the Qur'an Part 1

part 2

part 3

part 4

part 5

Hanikam Fri 11-Jan-13 14:53:01

crescentmoon thank you for the links.
Where would you recommend a beginner to make a start with Hadith?

crescentmoon Fri 11-Jan-13 14:47:08

"or example, verse 191 could be taken as to mean that land that was once Muslim (I.E. Spain for a period until the 15th Century) should become Muslim again and that in order to achieve that killing in the name of Allah is justified."

that particular fear is often an argument of the right wing islamophobes. i think your references are probably from anti arab or anti islam websites which have also, on top of misquoting the quran themselves for their own prejudice put their own commentaries and interpretations on those verses.

and if you are coming from that viewpoint i dont know whether you would even want to understand the mainstream viewpoint - your posts alone give clues as to who you think are the '100 per centers' because you are asking how those verses are interpreted in "modern islam".

you see to us violent extremists are THE modern innovation, they clash with orthodox and traditionalist Muslims who resist their manipulation of religion for power politics.

your first verse you quoted had the classic 'cut and paste' treatment but instead of attributing it to one verse - which can be quite long - it attributed it to 4 verses in the Quran. chapter 2 verse 190- 193. if you wish to look up the verses yourself then i suggest www.quran.com - a very simple website used by muslims with the 7 most common translations in english so that you can compare and contrast translations.

muslims are pretty obsessive about quranic references and all qurans have the same order of verses and chapters so its not hard to look up. whilst we disagree within ourselves about context we all agree on conTENT whether sunni, shia, sufi, wahhabi, liberal, secular etc.

to start with in your first post you said:

"However, a minority find verses in the Qur'an to justify "jihad" in the way of Muhammad and to please Allah."

the word jihad is different from the word fighting. it is mistaken to mean holy war so when the quran praises jihad people take that in a negative light. In the linguistic sense, the Arabic word "jihad" means struggling or striving and applies to any effort exerted by anyone in the way of God.

i think this organisation in the USA are doing a good job in trying to change peoples perceptions of the word and reclaim it from both sides of the clash of civilisations brigade.

www.myjihad.org

its important to understand how the majority of muslims believe and practise the definition of Jihad.

katieval Fri 11-Jan-13 12:50:37

Hi Crescent Moon,

the quotes I provided are ones that I have seen in the media which have apparently come direct from "fundamentalists". Translations can vary from source to source so it is very easy for one person to take a different meaning from the same text. From the full transcript you provided I'd say that someone could use them as justification for Jihad is they so wished.

For example, verse 191 could be taken as to mean that land that was once Muslim (I.E. Spain for a period until the 15th Century) should become Muslim again and that in order to achieve that killing in the name of Allah is justified.

However, my aim in starting this thread was to find out how often, if ever, verses of this nature appear in the Qur'an, and how they are interpretated in modern Islam.

Hanikam Fri 11-Jan-13 12:31:08

CrescentMoon there are those who say we don't need anything except the Quran, or the Quran is the answer for everything. Well, err, actually not cos as you say, many verses refer to a specific event in an oblique way. And interpretations have changed over time, often for politically expedient reasons.

Quoting anything out of context is very dubious and usually libellous in RL, but not when it comes to religion! Anything goes from the rent - a-quote "Sheikhs"!

crescentmoon Thu 10-Jan-13 17:46:47

well katieval, firstly the references you have given arent all from the quran, and neither do they match up with the verses you are quoting from. lets take the first one.

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
Qur’an 2:190-193

the Qur'an, Chapter 2, Verse 190 - 193 reads....

verse 190:
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
verse 191:
And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and persecution is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
verse 192:
And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
verse 193:
Fight them until there is no [more] persecution and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

without explaining anything of context or history, how do those verses read to anybody?

katieval Thu 10-Jan-13 17:19:34

Thank you for your messages, and moving the thread to the correct section!

I've not read the Qur'an in any detail but I've come across quotes in the past that have concerned me, such as:

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.
Qur’an 2:190-193

O ye who believe! Fight the unbelievers who gird about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him:
Qur’an 9:123

God is most high and most glorious. We are not equal. Our dead are in paradise; your dead are in hell.

And I wondered whether they actually came from Qur'an or if they are parts of it that have be twisted in order to justify Jihad.

crescentmoon Thu 10-Jan-13 12:00:30

i think the biggest proof that these people are our enemies rather than our 'shock troops' is that they kill muslims with far more gusto and regularity than non muslims.

Hanikam Thu 10-Jan-13 11:25:17

Here is Syrah 109 from the Quran, which you won't find quoted by Islamists or Jihadists

"Say: Oh you that reject faith!
I worship not that which you worship
Nor will you worship that which I worship
And I will not worship that which you have been worshipping
Nor will you worship that which I worship
To you be your Way, and to me mine"

Also Surah 5' v69
"Those who believe in the Quran
Those who follow the Jewish Scriptures
And the Sabians and the Christians
Any who believe in Allah
And the Last Day,
And work righteousness
On them shall be no fear,
Nor shall they grieve"

And Surah 10 v99
" If it had been the Lord's will, they would have all believed,
All who are on earth!
Will you then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!"

Hope this helps. I am no scholar, but I do believe that all holy texts can be twisted by evil minded people to support whatever cause they are promoting.

KateSMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 10-Jan-13 09:40:37

Morning everyone,

As PurpleStorm suggested, we're going to move this thread to our Religion topic, as we think you'll get the best response there.

PurpleStorm Wed 09-Jan-13 21:44:00

No idea.

But did you know that Mumsnet has a Philosophy / Religion / Spirituality section?

Someone over there might know more.

katieval Wed 09-Jan-13 20:22:53

It is clear from what is constantly reported in the British media that Islam is a tolerant and peaceful religion. However, a minority find verses in the Qur'an to justify "jihad" in the way of Muhammad and to please Allah.

I'm sure the Qur'an contains tens of thousands of words and that the verses that the jihadists use as justification for fighting a "holy war" make-up a tiny percentage of the entire works, that have been taken out of context.

Anyone on here studied the Qur'an in any detail and knows whether this is true?

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