Church building funds - wouldn't we be better selling the damn building and meeting in a pub?

[morningpaper]

I belong to a local Church of England parish church which attracts about 50 people a week from a potential parish of 12,000 people.

We have nearly £1 million of building work required to keep the church over the next few years.

The existing parishioners are generally old and gradually dying off. But we keep being asked for more and more time and money to maintain the fabric of the building for 'future generations' (I've no idea where they expect these people to rise up from because I am the only woman of childbearing age and am therefore solely responsible for re-populating the congregation and I've only managed 2 so far)

When I suggest that our heritage is too much for us, people are grossly offended. But what can I say? I don't want to keep wasting time and money on a building that will only be in the hands of the church for a limited amount of time. Frankly I think it would be better if we did just sell it to NatWest.

Anyone else in a similar position?

[acnebride]

Not the same responsibilities but I often look at our local church and think that we should get housing built on the site, possibly with a central meeting space included. The local Catholic congregation meets at the community centre over the road and I don't see why we shouldn't either join in with them or run separate services there. It's currently used 3 x a week for 2 hours at a time, while there are 5,000 on the 'inactive' local housing list, never mind those who actually get housed.

[Marina]

What is the building MP? Are we talking boggo urban Victorian gothic here or something of more architectural merit?
Do you have a separate church hall that you could possibly contemplate leasing?
My previous church has funded a number of essential works from the proceeds of renting its church hall to a photographic library. I will be honest and say that from the perspective of the families at the church this was a royal PITA as there was no nice space to have creche, Sunday School, Brownies etc, but it kept the church solvent and standing.
Are Nat West interested?
At our current church (a handsome and sparsely populated Arts and Crafts edifice) all around us is rather touching evidence of its heyday - over 200 carefully embroidered kneelers, gorgeous banners, photographs of parish outings running to four packed charabancs. I can see why your other fellow worshippers are saddened by the idea of selling off the building tbh - but like you, we are surrounded by old folk at our church and I don't know what our future is long-term either. (although we have been helped by an insane anti-baby campaign in the next parish and three new babies and their parents have tipped up in recent months).

[Marina]

That is a very fair point acnebride (about the urgent need for social/keyworker housing). Our quite extensive glebelands were sold off some years ago to a housing association, not that any of the residents stick their heads round the door on a Sunday morning )
We do already share the building with the local Roman Catholics and the hall is a heavily used community facility, which is great.

[tortoiseshell]

The problem with selling buildings as Marina says is you lose the space for things like brownies, coffee mornings, concerts - things that keep a church alive through the week.

Have you thought about ecumenical use of buildings - joining with another church, maybe of another denomination?

[Helen38]

Well a church isn't the building it's the people isn't it?

Understand where you are coming from, trouble is, older people (well in our church) don't like change and often have trouble seeing God as being anywhere outside of the church building.

A lot people living in the parish would cause a fuss if we tried to shut our church but only ever come at christmas or to baptisms.

We are lucky in that we are slowly getting a few more families so it is no longer left to me to fill the pews with more and more babies, although I am working on it no3 coming soon i hope.

[harpsichordcarrier]

I have strong views about this - want to hear them ?
church if #england buildings belong to the people - they were built with the people's money
it is a HUGE burden to put on the current church going population
so let the building pay for itself...
encourage its use as a venue - for commercial enterprises, for concerts and events
make it a centrepiece of the community (there is historical precedent for this)
bring the people intot he church for whatever reason
I am dong my bi for this cause btw...

[bloss]

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[acnebride]

I completely agree re use of the building and would hate to see any church used like this in a village sold off - I grew up in a village where the church was used pretty constantly. But I live just between the centre and outskirts of Oxford. If there is one thing Oxford is not short of it is beautiful Church buildings, venues for concerts etc. The community centre is hugely active and has the Brownies, AA, NA, book club, evening classes, jazz brunches etc (not simultaneously btw). The big Rectory has been carved up into 4 houses, one of which is the new Rectory. There is an Elim Church a very short distance down the road which is also v active.

The trouble is I would not like to see all old or expensive churches used in this way - nor would i really like to see this one turned into 1 very expensive house. I'd like to see the site converted imaginatively and ecologically into a small block of houses mixing families and other age groups, and for anyone who can't cope with the Elim or the Catholic service to worship at either the community centre or the tiny, strange and beautiful village church 1 mile up the road.

Sorry, MP, you have touched a nerve here for me!

[bangersandmash]

It's madness to expect the nation's architectural and historical heritage to be funded by the handful of people who happen to be Christian


So is it only practicing Christians who have funerals in churches then??? Certainly isn't in our church - we have the whole 'matches, hatches and dispatches' in ours.

[bloss]

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[lilibet]

I have very strong feelings on the amount of money spent to keep a building going. At the moment we need £30,000 jsut to put the scaffolding up to see how far our dry rot has spread.

People are starving in the world and this seem such a waste of resources. Does anyone remember the Vicar of Dibley episode where she collected for a new stained glass window ans then gave all the money to an earthquake appeal? My type of Vicar!

[DominiConnor]

[i]It's madness to expect the nation's architectural and historical heritage to be funded by the handful of people who happen to be Christian[/i]

Why limit that to churches ?
If a company cannot afford the upkeep of a nice building, should we give them money as well ?

What about listed homes, far more of those than churches, many are lived in by people who find it hard to keep them up ?

Also the CoE is quite capable of paying for it's buildings. It owns huge amounts of land, and many fine homes for it's staff.
The majority of this country profess to be Christian, and the majority of these say they are CoE. There are thousands of Christians in this country who could personally write a cheque to fix their local church and barely notice it.
They don't.
That's their choice. If Christians don't want to fix their own buildings I see no reason why anyone else should.
Also you can see where that would lead. Moslems getting subsidies for Mosques, Jews for synagogues etc. Huge costs.

I'd be interested to hear which public service you feel should be cut in order to pay for middle class people to have pretty buildings.
Healthcare ? Pensions ?

[morningpaper]

"boggo urban Victorian gothic" it is, Marina. It's nice and all, but there are about 20 similar churches in a 10-mile radius, all with diminishing congregations trying to keep them up.

NatWest aren't interested, no... I was thinking that the church would make a nice 'trendy wine bar' actually!

There is a church hall but it can't be rented, it's basically condemned and replacing it is part of the new works required.

I am very confused about the funding-of-nice-buildings issues and I understand Dominic's point of view. There is limited money for historic buildings - which ones should benefit?

The CofE doesn't actually have VAST amounts of money at it's disposal - it's all being sold off piece by piece to fund clergy pensions, as far as I understand it. So there isn't a great deal of money around.

I really agree with Lillibet - if Jesus were to visit our church I can't believe he'd say "Ah yes, what you need to do it spend £100 k on a new organ" (one of our many appeals) - when there are so many people suffering in the world and that kind of money could help so many people.

I DO give money to charities and causes but I admit that the church comes low down on my list, because I feel very uneasy about maintaining these buildings when I can give £10 to save someone's sight in the third world.

[bangersandmash]

and many fine homes for it's staff.


really?? where are these wonderful homes for the staff???

There are thousands of Christians in this country who could personally write a cheque to fix their local church

yes but are they CoE?? I doubt it. The fastest growing churches in this coutnry are the KICC and the likes. What you're effectively saying is that most of those in the times rich list are a) Christians and b) CoE - highly unlikely I think.

[Marina]

MorningPaper, I can see all the more now the reasons for your views - 100k to repair an organ in a dwindling parish is ridiculous when, as I think we all agree, starvation and misery worldwide needs aid support and cash from us all.
But, Domini...
The C of E is not a profit-making organisation.
It is currently the established faith of the United Kingdom, whether or not you agree with that (and plenty of C of E members have views on that issue too)
It is landed with the maintenance bill for these buildings many of which are listed, and therefore can't just be demolished to make way for no-brainer worthy projects like social housing or community centres.
Many in the C of E resent that charge because it prevents more money being spent on community-based projects and aid worldwide. We'd love the leeway to hand over the architectural stunners to something like English Heritage (nb, NOT local public funds) and knock down the echoing, mass-build, undistinguished Gothic piles.
And I would happily see the same conservation privileges extended to any other places of worship, like that stunning temple in NW London.

[bangersandmash]

dare I ask - how old is the organ - and what make (if you know). at that price to repare I'd say it's probably a decent size - and probably worth a fair amount,

You could spend about £15k on a new fancy electric one (sounds not bad and okish to play) - but guess what - in 10-15yrs time you'd have to replace it (our church has a 13yr old on that has been repaired 7 times in the last year). A 100yr old pipe organ which is restored for 100k will almost certainly still be around in 100yrs time - with relatively little money spent on it (tuning once a year).

An old church with a decent organ can generate money by being used for organ recitals and concerts. A new 'box' building for a church will not be sought after for concerts or use of the organ.

I know lets just knock down all old buildings (religious or not) where public money is needed to keep them up - then our grandchildren can be left with monotonous (sp) new brick buildings to look at. ....

[morningpaper]

Yes it about 200 years old and is a 'magnificent organ' as the vicar is always boasting in a slightly Freudian manner. But is it really the job of a dwindling congregation to maintain such ancient items for the future - WHAT future is there going to be? It doesn't look very hopeful in most parishes. Will today's children REALLY be interested in christian heritage when most of them will have no understanding of what that means?

[bangersandmash]

well if there's no christian heritage left then no they definitely won't be interested

[bangersandmash]

and besides - despite organs mainly being found in churches they weren't orginally a 'christian' instrument - they were first found in courts and palaces, then it was realised they were the ideal instrument for accompanying the literagy - and they were moved - then in the 1800's came some of the finest instruments ever built.

PS - MP - if I'm ever down your way (whereever that is) I'd SOOOOO love a go on that organ - it sounds marvelous.

[bloss]

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[bloss]

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[poppiesinaline]

Errrm. My church does - meet in a pub. Its true. We don't have a church building for the very reason of the costs of keeping one. We spend the money on other stuff. We hire school halls or other churches (when they are not using them) to meet in and one Saturday morning a month we meet in a local pub.

[tortoiseshell]

bloss - definitely. A church with a well kept organ and a decent acoustic can get all sorts of local and non-local concerts. For example, our local church has lots of concerts - at least one a month, with audiences of 300+, and has attracted international soloists to perform. You wouldn't get that with an electronic organ.

[DominiConnor]

I'm not sure why you say they can't sell churches ?
Yes a very small number have covenants but the rest are entirely saleable.

Many are indeed listed, and I find that system highly iniquitious in general so I have sympathy there. But my work is mostly in the City and many firms have to squander hugre sums to keep a small pool of middle aged arts graduates happy looking at mock-edwardian concrete. Do you recall not long ago the arties listed a car park ? It was aparrently a fine example of 60s brutalism in concrete. Not really, I'm not kaing this up.

But they can sell them as homes or indeed wine bars. They don't like doing this, but few people like sacking staff to pay their tax bill.
to pay for other people's luxuries.

The CoE Is indeed a loss maker, being on the wrong (and losing) side of every social debate since 1850 hasn't helped. Given that many of the churches were built using money stolen from charitable legacies left in their "care", I find it hard to be sorry for them.
The Catholics who also have issue keeping up churches are of course haemorriging cash because they raped for many kids that an American is 7 times more likely to be raped as a child by a christian priests than murdered by moslem terrorist.

[bangersandmash]

Bangers - do you really think that a good organ in a local church can be commercially viable?



Yes you'll get more money to your upkeep of the church through concerts/recitals (and a 200yr old organ that need 100k of work is by my reckoning a damn fine instrument - most restorations of 'average' organs of that age around around 30-50k) in an older church with fab accoustices than in a modern bog standard building.