What does 'sake' actually mean?

[Desiderata]

My three year old asked me this today, out of the blue .. as they do.

I expect he overheard me saying 'Oh, for heaven's sake' or something equally Joyce Grenfellesque when I placed my naked foot squarely on a small, green building block this afternoon. I mean, he didn't ask me what FUCK meant, so I must have alluded to the heavens, right?

Any hooo, without resorting to the dictionary or to Google, can anyone explain to me what 'sake' means ... as in, 'for heaven's sake', or 'we should go to the party for Mary's sake.'

[DumbledoresGirl]

Sake - it is Japanese rice beer isn't it?

[onebatmother]

Is it something like 'for the good of'?

[BoysOnToast]

benefit.

for xxx's sake = for xxx's benefit.

no?

i also thought of the rice wine when i read title

[Desiderata]

So, I'm taking a punt that it's a word of Anglo-Saxon origin, meaning (as BoysonToast and Onebat say), for the good of, or to the benefit of.

Or is it of Japanese origin, as Dumbles has alluded?

[policywonk]

I am nothing without reference books.

[Desiderata]

Don't be daft, PW. It doesn't mean that, surely?



Oh, I've got my reference books ... I just wanted to see if anyone knew it, right off the top of their head. 'Cos it's a funny word, see? It can't stand alone. It has to be in company.

What's that sort of word called, btw?

[BoysOnToast]

needy?

[snice]

Challenging?

[Desiderata]

Hah! Got you there.

There has to be a word for a word that cannot exist on its own.

Sake is a prime example. It means nothing unless it's within a sentence. It's like a verbal prime number.

There must be a grammatical term for such a word.

[Ellbell]

Have you looked it up yet, Desi? Obviously Boys and OneBat are right about the meaning, but where does it come from? It doesn't sound like a Romance word to me...
[curious emoticon]

[theyoungvisiter]

or what about "forsake" as in "'Do not forsake me Lord Asquith!' bemoaned the lovely Rosamond."

How does that fit in with "for Pete's sake"?

Anyhoo, my punt is that I think its Anglo-Saxon and means something like Love. As in "I shall do this for Mary's sake" = out of love for Mary.

[Desiderata]

Yes, I did look it up, girls!

It's OE .. so it's Anglo Saxon, as I thought, although there are loads of European roots meaning the same.

Out of consideration for, or in the interest of.

But I'm still looking for the answer to this question? What do you call a word that cannot exist on its own?

Obviously it is neither noun nor verb.

[theyoungvisiter]

I'm pretty sure sake is a noun...? His sake - her sake. A sake is something. You can replace it with another noun and the sentence still makes grammatical sense

"We'll go to the party for Mary's sake"

"We'll go to the party for Mary's benefit"

[Ellbell]

Surely 'sake' here is a noun? For the sake of... if it can be preceded by a definite article then it's a noun.

I'm not sure that it's true to say that 'sake' can't exist on its own, any more than any noun's meaning is restricted out of context...

Girl.

Pencil.

Double-decker bus.

None of them really 'does' much unless they have a sentence around them.

You could say that 'sake' is usually used in the formulation 'for [possessive] sake' (for Pete's sake, do this for my sake, etc.), but that's to do with how it's used, not intrinsic to the word itself.

[theyoungvisiter]

Ok, I just looked it up - it definitely is a noun.

But I've just looked up the etymology on Wiki and it claims its from the Old English Sacu, with the original meaning Dispute or Sin.

Isn't that weird? I can't quite work out how they got from that to the current meaning of sake.

The OED would have the progression but I don't think you can get that online

[Desiderata]

You're right, TYW. According to the OED, it is a noun.

I stand corrected on that

I'm still searching for the name of a word that cannot exist on its own, though.

You cannot say 'sake' alone, and make sense.

[Mhamai]

You can if you mutter "fuck" quietly first!

[iloverosycheeks]

I often say 'sake' on its own, its a scottish thing, instead of saying oh for fucks sake or for gods sake you just say SAKE!!!!! sorry know that doesnt help or make much sense

[Ellbell]

My dictionary (sadly not the OED) gives the same etymology, but says that sacu is 'a lawsuit (hence, a cause)'. It also says that it's related to the Old Norse sok (that clears a lot up, then...; doesn't even say what sok means) and to the German Sache meaning 'matter'. [I'm guessing this has nothing to do with Sachertorte..., which is a bit of a shame!]

So, does it mean 'do this for my sake' - i.e. 'do this to help advance my cause'???

[Desiderata]

Well, it does make sense, ilove, in that your Scottish vernacular most definitely turns it into a noun!

[BoysOnToast]

i went to school in Hackney.
i havnt the foggiest idea what on earth any of you are now talking about.
ILEA, RIP.

[Desiderata]

Well, that's it, Mhamai

The only reason I'm asklng the question is because ds asked me earlier today, having let out oaths.

[Ellbell]

Have just looked up Sache in my old school German dictionary, and it also has the meaning of 'case' in law or 'cause'. However, it doesn't mean 'sake' in the modern English sense. For God's sake = Um Gottes willen. (That's irrelevant to the discussion, but I didn't want to waste the looking-up I did in my German dictionary!)

I still think that there are many words that don't make sense when used alone. Most words (unless they are exclamations, or some kinds of verbs - e.g. imperatives and some questions) need a context.

Listen! (Imperative)

See? (Question)

Flapjack (... See, it doesn't make sense.) I suggest that a word that can't be used on its own is, therefore, called 'a noun'.

Under. (Or, indeed, a preposition!)

I rest my case/socu.

[Ellbell]

socu/sacu... whatever the hell it was!

Mhamai!

[Mhamai]

"Having let out oaths" Jesus Desi your a gem! Actually my first thought tbh was, what a clever little boy!