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You know, all this talk about CV and avoiding eye contact is bothering me, because I did that.

58 replies

welliemum · 10/10/2007 21:40

Have 2 dds who were extremely active, responsive, "wired" babies who found it difficult to wind down and go to sleep.

Both of them they were very responsive to eye contact almost from birth: if they were sleepy and you looked into their eyes, they immediately became wide awake.

At times they were feeding every hour during the day and every 2 hours during the night. I quickly learned that when settling them to sleep after night feeds my options were:

Holding them close with head on my shoulder, rubbing their backs, stroking their hair, rocking, saying "shhhhh" = reasonable chance of getting them back to sleep.

Holding them in my arms, doing all the above and looking into their eyes = reasonable chance of spending the next 2 hours pacing the floor with screaming overwrought baby, whilst almost hallucinating with exhaustion myself.

Am quite lentil-weavery and basically wore them for the first 10 months of their lives, demand breastfeeding, etc. If anyone tells me I emotionally damaged them by not making eye contact at night I'll be a bit

Has anyone else found similar with their DCs or is it just mine that were eye contact freaks?

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BlueberryPancake · 10/10/2007 21:45

Hi Welliemum, I really don't think what you did was a problem at all. I actually think that you were obviously 'tuned in' to your children's responses if you figured all that out.

But there's a difference between never making eye contact for the sake of making your newborn baby fit into a pre-determined routine designed to make them sleep through the night at some ridiculously early age, and knowing that your baby will go hyper if you make eye contact.

God I can can write long sentences sometimes, I hope you understand what I mean.

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3andnogore · 10/10/2007 21:48

Wellie....I don't think anyone would come to the conclusion that you harmed your children.
YOU didn't generally avoid eyecontact, you had a certain reason for it at a certain time of the day...it helped you and your Baby's...so, you did the right thing on them...
Claire Verity's no eyecontact goes far deeper, as it is part of a otherwise anyway cruel and neglective regime....and it's also done for a very weird belief that the Baby would be the one in control if he/she got eyecontact, so, it's done for a very weird reason...

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PeachesMcLean · 10/10/2007 21:48

"Holding them close with head on my shoulder, rubbing their backs, stroking their hair, rocking, saying "shhhhh""

This does not sound anything like neglect to me.

I don't know anything about CV thank god. Sounds like you did just fine.

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morocco · 10/10/2007 21:50

never make/made eye contact much with mine at night either, mostly cos i do the last feed in pitch darkness but also cos the slightest glance and they'd be up and at it all over again. you sound like you are a fab and lovely mum

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Hallgerda · 10/10/2007 21:50

welliemum, I too have found the overwhelming lentilweaveriness of the CV threads, and dismissal of everyone who couldn't take the complete package, a bit much. I tried "going with the flow" myself and couldn't do it. All my babies have been too heavy for slings after a few weeks, I could never do breastfeeding while doing other things, and I needed my sleep in order to function properly. So they were all in their own room from the start (or, in the case of DS1, on coming home from the hospital), and I kept the night feeds as boring as possible for the reasons you describe, and in general tried to make daytime seem more interesting. (Actually, any attempt at eye contact while breast feeding led to distraction and a soaked sofa.) I never attempted, let alone achieved, anything that could have been described as a routine, but I did try to stretch the interval between feeds (by reasonably humane methods ). I did manage to breastfeed the eldest for six and a half months, and the younger two for just under a year, and did so in a number of public places .

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NotAnOtter · 10/10/2007 21:50

welliemum - not read whole cv thing but thee us NO WAY i make eye contact with a bab during an evening or night feed!

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LittleBella · 10/10/2007 21:52

You didn't do that!

She wants you to avoid eye contact with babies all the time, except when you're feeding them in the daytime.

You didn't do that.

So stop letting it bother you!

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margoandjerry · 10/10/2007 21:56

Again, opposition to CV on this board manages to suggest to lovely parents that they are doing something wrong

Agree with Hallgerda. Am neither lentilweaver nor martinet but quite happy to accept aspects of AP and aspects of routine-based parenting and go with whatever works.

I didn't make eye contact at night because we were sitting in the dark and I usually had my eyes closed...normal at 3am surely?

Ignore the nonsense.

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morningpaper · 10/10/2007 21:59

oh no of COURSe you did nothing wrong

but CV says no TOUCHING, cuddling, or eye contact - as though eye contact ALONE is too much loving interaction for a baby at night

obviously if it wakes them up madly you wouldn't do it

but your babies were being comforted and cuddled, not lying in a cot in the dark screaming

don't worry, you are a GREAT mummy!!!!

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Habbibu · 10/10/2007 22:03

Not at all. You responded to the individual needs of your children. Hell, my daughter sleeps outside in a pram! (But she's NEVER out there screaming, and only out as long as she's asleep...)

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welliemum · 10/10/2007 22:03

Thanks for kind comments - I don't want to sound smug about this but I'm genuinely not worried about the eye contact thing. I did it because it felt right, it made them happier and it worked for us, and I think that is about the best you can say about anything you do as a parent.

I've not seen the TV programme (am in NZ) but have read as much as I could find about CVs methods (quite a lot), and I loathe them, and I think my method of parenting is pretty much the polar opposite to hers.

However. Simply doing the opposite to CV at all times isn't going to work either - life's much more complicated than that and I do worry that the debate is getting a bit simplistic.

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funnypeculiar · 10/10/2007 22:04

welliemum - I think I'm relatively lentilly ... and I tried to avoid eyecontact at night as they'd go 'whay-hey, play time' too.

I don't think that makes either of us CV...

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3andnogore · 10/10/2007 22:07

Margo and Kall...erm....the op did admit to hihg tendency of lentil weaving...so, really lovely and supportive comments tehre then
and no it's not lentilweavers only that feel CV is doinbg somehting really disturbing....I would think all decent parents would feel uneasy about her parenting techniques and as they are portraied in the programme...

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3andnogore · 10/10/2007 22:07

Hall not Kall

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Marina · 10/10/2007 22:08

There is some reassuring stuff about eye contact in the Social Baby project if I recall - that there will be times when tired, over-stimulated babies will break eye contact, or unmistakeably avoid it. It's a sign to parents to put them down for a rest.
As others have said welliemum, it's about what's right for you and your baby and not feeling bad about your instincts

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margoandjerry · 10/10/2007 22:08

welliemum, I completely agree. There's another thread on here somewhere that says if you don't respond to a crying baby it will have shutdown syndrome and be permanently emotionally damaged.

Well of course it will, if it is left to cry repeatedly and permanently and never shown any love and affection. But of course people hear the headline as "if you have allowed your baby to cry for more than two minutes you are cruel and have damaged your child forever".

CV sounds pretty awful but she is clearly a made-for-TV sensation-seeker and not worth all the attention she's getting. As for getting the NSPCC involved, I fear these people don't know how much real harm and cruelty there is in the world and that's why they let themselves get sucked in to an edited-for-effect TV programme.

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pneumalifenewname · 10/10/2007 22:09

When I sleep train I insist that parents make eye contact! Other than that it's up to the family. Yes it winds a lot of children up for a bit but they aren't stupid and one way or another they figure that the message is the same whether you look at them or not. Eye contact says you mean whatever you say whether that be "go to bloody sleep you royal pita" or "mummy loves you now snuggle down for sleepies"

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margoandjerry · 10/10/2007 22:11

3andgore, I think you misinterpreted our posts.

the OP jokingly identified herself as a lentilweaver. I said "I am neither lentilweaver nor martinet" meaning I am not aligned to one camp or another. I don't do AP, nor do I do routine-based parenting.

I do a bit of whatever works, be it lentilweaving (code word for AP approach) or routine stuff.

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welliemum · 10/10/2007 22:12

Ah, now that is reassuring, Marina, and fits with what I experienced with my 2.

I'm on other threads saying that I think CV is dangerous, so I'm not supporting anything she says.

But I get uneasy when I see people making rules about how to deal with little babies - good or bad - because to me, the essence of it is knowing your baby and what they need at that moment, and rules can really get in the way of that.

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3andnogore · 10/10/2007 22:13

Margo....the problem is, that if the behaviour shown on that programme would be executed in a low income family wiht social issues, etc...Socialworkers would be on the door mat...
because, no eyecontact (other then in those 10 minutes cuddling time), no picking up and cuddling other then the 10 minutes, or when something has got to be done to the Kid, leaving Baby's to cry endlessly, despite there possibly being a physical need, never mind an emotional need, forcefeeding Baby's like a X-mas goose...etc...etc...believe me, if that happens in real life (although we mustn't forget those Baby's taking part were real)and someone from a different social background...authorities would be interested, and rightly so...

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Marina · 10/10/2007 22:14

I recommend the book welliemum (my copy on loan to my dsis right now). The video stills of these teeny babies communicating extremely effectively with their parents are funny, touching, and (with hindsight !) quite simple to decode once the wonderful people at the Social Baby project explain it all

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3andnogore · 10/10/2007 22:15

just reread your message Margo, and I do apologise...it was only Hallgerda that complained about lentilweavers being the problem

and looking at my spelling, I should find my way to bed, me thinks....

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margoandjerry · 10/10/2007 22:16

I think we've all made it perfectly clear we don't think CV's approach has any validity.

But it's a TV programme. How long do you really think she stayed with those families? She'll have been there a day or two and they'll have edited it all together for effect which is sad in itself as they could have made an interesting programme about parenting and instead they made a stupid one.

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3andnogore · 10/10/2007 22:17

BTW, I don't think it's the lentilweaver taking over or anything that is the problem...I think it just shows how easily parents in general get insecure...but that is a problem within...if that makes sense...

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welliemum · 10/10/2007 22:17

It sounds lovely Marina - checking the local library catalogue as we speak...

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