Mothers of boys - please tell me whether this is normal or not!

[Lovecat]

I keep thinking I'm overreacting and then I keep thinking no, I'm not, so advice and opinions would be very welcome!

I know this woman via church - her ds is 2 months older than dd (2.3) and they used to sit behind us every week. The two of them liked to play together and, although he's a little rough (and hits his mum AND me as well - though not me that often as I do a good 'scary madwoman' look at him when he does) they seemed to get on quite well in the weekly half hour they were together.

So I invited them to dd's birthday party, and ever since then they've been turning up unannounced on my doorstep. She's been through quite a hard time recently and I don't feel able to say 'it's not convenient, go away' which is what I want to do, as I only get 2 days at home with dd in the week. If they played together nicely it wouldn't be so much of an issue, but this little boy is (and here's where I may be overreacting) HORRIBLE!!!

He hits, he pulls hair, he tries to strangle, he takes toys off dd by grabbing her arm and forcing it off them (snatching toys in itself doesn't bother me so much, I'm well aware that's normal toddler behaviour), and his mum doesn't tell him off until I get in there - she does nothing to physically prevent him. just laughs a little embarrassedly. So I do physically stop him, because dd gets quite upset. She is also very upset because he doesn't get told off for his behaviour - she's in nursery 3 days a week where any kind of violence is not tolerated and an immediate apology or hug is extracted/time out given and I can see a bewilderment in her eyes that this little boy is not getting told off - she actually looks at me in tears like 'mummy, aren't you going to do anything?'.

While I have no qualms about physically detaching him from my dd and saying 'no, xxx, we don't hit/kick/strangle/pull hair' as I do it, his mum says nothing to him - or me, other than 'oh, he doesn't know his own strength', and I feel awkward about demanding an apology/hug when his mum won't ask him to do it.

He also attacks me, and so I know how hard he can hit/strangle/pull. It hurts!!

So... is this normal boy behaviour?

He doesn't go to nursery, he is looked after by his gran 2 days a week, the rest of the time he's with his mum, so I gather from what she's said that he doesn't socialise with other children much.

(oh, and she can't take a hint to leave, either, and if I don't say 'well, we've got to go out now' or something, she'll still be sitting there 3 hours later - she doesn't know many people in the area, so I feel very mean wanting to get rid of her, but every time I open the door and see her there with him my heart sinks... and she drives her pushchair straight into our living room as well, because he won't get out in the hallway. Without ever asking. Even if it's raining. I know it's petty, but grrrr....)

Perhaps I just need to grow a backbone?? Well, that's a different issue! The OH says I should just not answer the door...

[policywonk]

It's not 'normal' boy behaviour - boys are no more likely to be aggressive than girls. She's just not dealing with it properly. You need to spit it out - 'It makes me anxious when your son plays with my daughter, because he seems quite aggressive in his play, and you don't deal with it in the same way that I would'.

She definitely sounds lonely. Could you suggest that you meet up in a toddler group or some other more social setting, and try to help her make some new mates?

[binker]

He does sound a complete nightmare,as does his mother and you've been very saintly putting up with it - I think for the sake of your sanity and that of your own child you need to toughen up and say something - not sure I know how to go about it but it sounds intolerable and must make you feel very miserable...

[Eve]

...not normal.. I have 2 boys and any behaviour like that was stopped immediately.

Ny neighbours 2 boys sound just like the one you have jsut described, mother is completely ineffective and doesn' say anything. They used to come into my house a lot till I told them bluntly they are not allowed. I have now progressed that to not allowing them in the garden, instead they play outside together (we live in an eclosed private estate, no cars allowed inside).

...nothing for it, but to be progressively blunt until she gets the message.

Though probably she is coming to you as she realises she can't hanlde her son , but you are not the parent or her helper.

...very hard of me but life is too short to parent other people.

[binker]

policywonk has put it better than me...

[policywonk]

[liisa]

my ds is 2.2 and very timid around other children so i'm probably not much good on advising about the little boys behaviour.

i have been in the very same situation with a mum a barely new from playgroup turning up unannounced. i'm the type to usually give into things for a quiet life and dont like confrontation at all but it was getting daft so i just had to be hardfaced and come up with excuse after excuse. i'd say ds was poorly (yes bad i know!) once she turned up i said he had thrush in his mouth and she ran a mile, or just said i was on my way out. then at playgroup i'd caually mention that i was going out on such a day or was changing my days at work and wasn't sure when i'd be in...didn't want her to have a wasted trip. i did feel bad but like your friend her child was too aggressive and my son was terrified of him!!

good luck

[Desiderata]

No, this isn't 'normal' behaviour. My ds is 2.6 and is as gentle as a lamb (99% of the time).

You're in a very difficult situation, both from the physical violence towards your dd, and the fact that this lady can't take a hint.

I've got to say (slight sidetrack) that I'm not houseproud at all, but pushing her pram into your front room is ridiculous behaviour.

Ew, I don't know. I guess you're going to have to lead by example. When the little boy gets rough, physically remove him/admonish him ... do whatever it takes. My guess is that most mothers wouldn't like another mother taking the lead in this way, and it might make her take on a more pro-active stance.

And resort to the old classic. Just hide behind the f*king settee until she's gone.

[Oblomov]

Not normal. You have to be honest with her. Tell her you only have free time on a ....wed at 3-5pm , or whatever.
If time is precious why spend it with a boy who has no manners - not his fault - does mum not show any embarrassment ?

[LIZS]

No not normal but without socialisign he isn't going to to learn the boundaries and she sounds a bit lacking in the means and confidence to instil it in him herself. Meet on neutral ground , playground etc so if she comes round go out , and just leave when you think he is getting too much. Can you also suggest playgroups/toddler type activities to give her an alternative to visiting you where she(or gran) may find other friends for him. Acknowledge he is "boisterous", without being critical, and that perhaps he needs to be distracted and participate in more structured activities.

[MrsBond]

Make some excuses in advance about being busy next week (going shopping or not feeling well!) and suggest some local toddler groups/activities etc... Tell her how friendly they are and how she'll make some new friends too

Sounds like she is lonely and needs to meet other mums and get her boy to learn how to socialise!

I agree with other posts - just ask her straight if she can stop if he behaves badly.

I wouldn't tolerate that behavior if we had a friend round to play. Your DD is your priority and if she doesn't enjoy playing with this boy she shouldn't have too - plus the mum over staying welcome sounds like a pain!

[Twiglett]

next time she comes round tell her you're busy next week so would she like to arrange to meet up at xxxx playgroup / park the following week at

that way you're pre-warning that you won't be able to see her for a week but arranging a social engagement

at that social engagement do the same thing .. busy next week how about xxx week

it is normal behaviour for many 2 year olds and I agree with whoever said you could tell her about your anxiety levels because she doesn't deal with him as you would

[Lovecat]

Thanks for all the replies - glad to know I'm not being totally horrible (which is how I feel I'm being when I consider hiding behind the sofa - aaargh, catholic guilt!).

Unfortunately, there are very few playgroups/activities in our area that don't cost a fortune and are on on Thursdays & Fridays. She has serious money troubles so can't take him to anything that costs.

I tend to spend my 2 days with dd at home doing things she likes, (painting, clay, cooking etc) unless the weather is nice, when we do go out, so I tend to be at home with dd when she calls round - and I've tried getting him to join in with the painting etc but it was just absolute mayhem...

You're right, I probably do need to confront this issue - aargh, off to the backbone shop!(and thanks Desi for agreeing re. the pushchair - I'm the untidiest person on God's green earth, but no way would I roll a muddy pushchair onto someone's carpet!).

[policywonk]

Also, you might find that meeting her somewhere other than your lounge - a park or playgroup - will enable the little chap to run off some energy, and the focus won't be solely on how he's interacting with your DD.

[Lovecat]

Oops, forgot to say - I think she is aware of his 'issues' as she said to me last week something along the lines of - well, when they goes to school at 5 they'll have to learn how to get on with other kids, won't they?'

To which I was a bit ...

Like the idea about the park, will try that too!

[Oblomov]

Yeah, agree to meet her in the ....park at ...3pm. When the time is right for you, you leave.

[flyingmum]

I think next time this woman turns up you need to be short in explanation and firm (treat her like a slightly recalcitrant toddler). "Oh lovely to see you, its a shame you haven't phoned because we are in the middle of something right now/going out/etc." Keep a bag and coat handy in the hall and reach to grab it and jangle car keys. If you still want to maintain the relationship because you feel a bit sorry for her then say "why don't we meet up in the park on such and such a date at such and such a time." A friend of mine's little boy who is lovely but went through a pretty violent phase which he couldn't help due to his SEN and she was very strict with him and found his behaviour difficult but we both found letting our kids play in the park or in a ball pool was easier because they run around more and there seems to be less physical contact. She was less stressed and my kid was less bruised!

This kid's behaviour is not down to gender just down to weak as ditchwater parenting and I wouldn't let your little girl suffer. If she comes again and the spawn of Satan does something awful just look at her directly and say "are you going to let him get away with that - your welcome to use the bottom stair as a naughty step if you wish" She will either get the hint or else take terminal umbrage and go off in a huff - either way to your benefit.

Best of luck.

[policywonk]

Maybe she actually wants you to deal with the bad behaviour? Maybe she doesn't have a clue how to handle it? Agree re. suggesting naughty step.

[LIZS]

Suggest she looks into playgroups/nursery NOW because he'll get vouchers from 3 (next January?) for 5 free sessions (and some areas offer low income families free sessions earlier)! Any Surestart groups around, library story telling etc ? The better weather coming is a great excuse for a change in routine , a picnic or a trip to the park for example. What if you said you'd pop into hers one day , so you can time it as you choose.

[Porpoise]

Lovecat, do you actually WANT this woman to be your friend?

If you don't really, you need her to get the message soon. so, you may have to be rather more obvious about it than you'd like.

If you do, you're going to have to tell her how you - and your dd - feel about her ds. And help her/show her how to deal with his behaviour.

Don't get stuck doing the second thing, if your heart's not in it

[Judy1234]

I'm afraid you have to turn her away next time and say you don't do casual visitor or something that makes it clear you only do visits by arrangement.

[Oblomov]

I like cat64's idea.

[evenhope]

To my shame I used to turn up at people's houses because I was really really lonely (not that I would have allowed my kids to behave like this dear little chap). What I would say is that hinting is just embarrassing for both parties. I would rather someone had told me outright that they didn't want me to call round, not hint or make excuses. I spent years and years wondering what I'd done when one new "friend" suddenly started cutting me dead in the street- it was horrible. So much easier had she just said she didn't want me to visit anymore.