final taboo

[celestine]

Hope this isn't too nosey a question - it really seems to be a taboo subject and not something you really want to ask your friends so here goes - how much do people spend on things. After all our monthly bills including mortgage are paid (£1000 approx)we should be left with about £650 to live on although it never works out like that because we owe money on our credit cards, overdraft etc and something always crops up like central heating broke down last month which eats into the £650. We spend about £400 on food so really we are cutting it really tight because there is no money left over for holidays, clothes, shoes, entertainment etc. Is this enough to live on? My friends husband is on £50k. Should I have stayed on in work to afford us a better standard of living but not be able to see the kids? Should we be thinking of other ways of cutting our outgoings - getting a cheaper house (altho we only have a mortgage for £54k) Should dh be thinking of getting another better paid job with added stress but more money (He's on £30,000 now which I think isn't much but he thinks is adequate). There doesn't seem to be anyone to discuss this with and is a constant source of arguing as I get days when I think I am the poorest person in this area. Unfortunately we live in a wealthy area so I inevitably end up comparing myself which I know I shouldn't do. Most of the women who go to my playgroups all seem to have the latest fashions and go on holidays abroad everyyear. What are other people paying out to maintain a standard of living? Reading back on this I sound so ungrateful and whinging - I don't mean to but sometimes wonder if we are leaving ourselves too short financially?

[celestine]

q

[Tetley]

Personally I find that however much you earn you always spend it. There is never such a thing as earning 'enough' money (unless you're into millions I guess!). I also feel that spending time with the kids is far more important than being able to buy them (and you) the latest fashions. When they're older their memories of good times will far outweigh their memories of that fantastic trendy dress they had.
I hope this doesn't sound like too much of a lecture - it's certainly not supposed to be - just my opinions
It's very difficult when you can't afford stuff you want, but life is too short to be looking for more stressful jobs, just to get more money.
I really don't know how well I've phrased this - just hope it helps...

[Joe1]

Tetly, agree with you, life is too short. We are in the opinion that as long as the mortgage is paid to keep the roof over our heads thats all that matters if the rest as to wait at any time, oh well.

[Rhubarb]

Hmmm, I can understand your point Celestine. I stay at home with my dd, my husband earns £20k and we get Working Families Tax Credit. Our mortgage is £178pm, the bills are high because I'm home all the time so the fire is always on, plus the central heating in winter, our food bill is £120pm approx (not including nappies, wipes, etc). Then you have council tax, pension payments, petrol, etc. Although we are quite good at keeping ourselves in the pink, we never seem to have money for any luxuries. Holidays this year are a no-no, perhaps a weekend away in Wales or something. My clothes and dd's are mostly second-hand and eating out is a rarity.

I think that if I worked we could live much more comfortably, but then you have to balance things out. Dh is happy with his job and he is always home in time for tea, and we have the weekends together. I enjoy looking after dd and wouldn't want anyone else looking after her just yet, so as a family we are quite content. Money is not everything, if your family are stable then who cares about how much money you have? I also mix with those women whose husbands earn much more than mine, they go ski-ing for their holidays, wear designer clothes and have beautiful homes, but their husbands are often away, they always seem to have problems with the childminder and they just don't seem that happy.

Be thankful for what you have, be yourself and be happy

[celestine]

Thanks Rhubarb, Joe1 and Tetley for those words of advice. Reading back on my original message I can't believe what a spoilt brat I sound - sometimes I need someone to talk a bit of sense. I know what matters is that we're all healthy, we eat and the mortgage gets paid. Sometimes I think I'm looking for something else thats missing and thinking I'll find it in trendy clothes, nice furniture or whatever and I know I shouldn't compare myself to other - I suppose everyone has their weak moments!

[robinw]

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[SueW]

Since our DD was born she's travelled worldwide, stayed in 5* hotels, flown business class etc. We live in a large 4 bed house with around 1/4 acre garden. However, she's also seen her dad out of work for six months from Aug 2001 to Feb 2002 and me go out temping when she's more used to my being her primary carer. Our finances took a huge plummet at that time but cutting back was reasonably easy and we realised just how much we have spent over the years on luxuries.

This morning I was watching Billy Elliot and it got to the bit where he has to choose special things to inspire his dance. He chooses a football and a letter from his mum. I asked DD what she would choose and she said she would choose me and her dad and 'everyone I know'. Not a material possession in mind. It was truly lovely to hear that.

[Alibubbles]

SueW, I could have written that first part of your message, life was exactly the same for us, DH not working for 6 months, until Feb this year, kids used to a five star lifestyle, etc. Fotunately, DH is working now, when he does work he earns in a month what some people earn in a year. I'm not boasting, life like that, is like living on a roller coaster!

When we have money we spend it, when we don't, we economise and are very careful. The children are also aware of good times and bad, though they take a little convincing when I say, sorry I haven't got any spare cash at the moment. My main concern is always the school fees, as long as we can pay those, the holidays have to go on hold.

I'll never forget we went to a school meeting about a school skiing holiday and when they said is there any questions, my son said,yes, does the hotel have room service! I hid in my chair! It was also the first time he had flown economy!

When I suggest to the kids I get a full time job, (they are 14 & 15) they always say, lets not have this or that and you stay at home. They are used to it and thats what they think is the best thing in their lives- having had me at home all their childhood. They see a lot of their freinds from wealthy families, with everything they want, but also at a price - dysfunctional, fragmented, separated, etc

[Inkpen]

Celestine - no, I don't really think you're sounding spoilt. I think what makes the difference is, as you said, if you live in a well-off area or your peers and friends happen to be better off. Most of my friends and I went through Uni so I suppose we had the same expectations out of life - but while one went into the City and others became solicitors, bankers etc., some of us chose professions that just don't pay that well. I also chose to stay home with the kids for these years and we live in the expensive South East, so we are probably less well off now than anyone I am friends with. The fact that we are better off than vast numbers of people is true, and I'm very grateful for what we have, but it's still more of a theoretical thing. What I hear, on a day-to-day basis, is friends talking about holidays abroad, new houses, trips to health farms etc. and I agree, Celestine, that can be hard. It's not necessarily that I even want to go to Disneyland or Ragdale, but my teeth do tend to be a little gritted when I hear, 'We really need a holiday to cope with Christmas ...' or 'well, it's my second visit to a health farm this year but it did me so much good last time ...'
We're still convinced, dh and I, of the choices we've made in our lives - the high-stress, high-earning City life is not for us and I value being at home with the children more than anything - but a touch more dosh wouldn't go amiss! Either that, or, I guess, some friends who earn what we do instead of what they do!! You're right about the taboo - saying you can't afford something is the taboo these days ...

[celestine]

Star, this is going to sound really lazy but come 6pm I'm absolutly knackered and we really enjoy having the weekends together so am reluctant to take on part-time work (although have been thinking about it) but I take your point if you want to have all the extras you have to make some effort but think I'd rather have less than wreck myself - am I lazy? And I know I should be grateful for what dh earns instead of whinging. Point taken. Will try to be a better person and not so spoilt. Inkpen, think you're right - having extremely wealthy mums at my playgroup does get to me and I wish I knew more people who were in the same situation as me but nobody admits it (thank god for Mumsnet). Ps Rhubarb how do you keep your food bill so low? I'd love to get our food bill down to £120pm.

[jessi]

I'm happy to admit that we are normally absolutely skint! I also live in an area surrounded by wealth, but when I find myself feeling jealous about so and so's new kitchen/car/holiday I only have to briefly remind myself that they haven't got dh or ds and maybe they're not as generally happy as I am. I admit that I do find life difficult sometimes, the financial juggling that go's on each month can wear me out mentally. But a good quality of life can be had when your not wealthy. To me my relationships matter so much, that I'd rather have a few decent friends who understand where we're at right now, than a bunch of vacuous ones who can only talk about the material things in their lives! Hope I don't sound bitter and twisted but its taken me a while to be able to put that in perspective. You couldn't get me to swap for anything the laughter and fun I have with my dh and ds.

[robinw]

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[Joe1]

In my previous marriage it was all money, what house we had, how much we had in the bank and never being able to buy things when I wanted. Now I buy what I want if we can afford it, sometimes if we cant, I have everything I want, not much money in the bank, we have a holiday somewhere once a year or a weekend away (nowhere exotic somewhere in England). I couldnt be happier Money and status isnt its all cracked up to be, you cant take it with you and the last thing I want is life memories of money money money, there is more to life.

[bettys]

I think there is far too much pressure these days to have material wealth ie clothes,cars, holidays. A lot is due to advertising & marketing, which is just as insidious as peer pressure and feeling you have to keep up with the Jones's (no offence to anyone called Jones!).
It's turned me into an inverted snob eg although I could afford to buy a 4 wheel drive (how I loathe them!) like everyone in my area has, I keep driving my battered old hatchback. it is the scruffiest car in the nursery car park, but I really don't care as I'm saving the money for something else.
To be sure, everyone prioritises things differently. Personally I'd rather work less and spend more time at home than have all the luxuries. There is always going to be someone who has more money or a higher standard of living

[Tillysmummy]

Who was it that said money is the greatest evil. It doesn't bring happiness or health. But at the same time it's quite nice to have some :0) I don't think you should feel bad about feeling a little down about it sometimes. We all have our bad days. I'm having one today !

[susanmt]

tilly, it's in the Bible (can find it if you want) and it is the LOVE of money which is the root of all evil, which sums up nicely what we have been talking about!

[tigermoth]

For me the love of money is to do with the love of freedom. As I'm not working I am feeling poor right now, and I have never been rich - we are mostly a one-main-income, one-smaller-income household. Anyway, some excess money gives me the freedom to take my children out for a day, without worrying about the cost of petrol, a pizza meal and entry to an attraction. It gives me the freedom to pay for a babysitter so dh and I can go out. With no relatives nearby, all our childcare has to be paid for. It gives me the option of buying a new outfit. Or not. It's so much easier to say 'no - too expensive' when you know you could afford new clothes if you wanted to. It gives me the freedom to change my mind at the last minute, take the children to see a film, and bundle them into a taxi if we're caught in the rain.

Money gives me choice. It's undeniable. You can choose to go on holiday or not. You can choose to support your child's expensive sporting hobby. You can choose to get away from them for an adult weekend. Money IMO helps to rectify the freedom of choice that gets taken away when you are a parent.

Of course, time gives you freedom as well. Lots of money, but no time to enjoy it, is not what I'd want at all.

I put freedom first, which is bought with money and the careful use of time.

[Tillysmummy]

Tigermoth - I agree, it certainly buys you freedom. I came back to work part time so that we could afford to stay where we live which is a very nice, but expensive area. Also so that we could afford private education for our DD. My hubby is a lawyer and earns a good salary but not enough yet to support us entirely, however hopefully he will in a couple of years when he's made a partner. We also pay for babysitting although parents do often help and there is nothing as important as having a bit of quality time, out of the house together in a different environment and money does buy that.

[Rhubarb]

Celestine - we keep our food bill down as we do grow vegetables in our garden, also we never buy ready-made meals apart from the odd pizza. I use my creative skills in making a different dish every day out of leftovers!! I also bake quite a bit. If you are prepared to buy fresh produce, buy supermarket own brands and cut down on luxury items like cakes, you can easily get your food bill down to £120pm. We even manage to throw in a bottle of wine for that too!

Having little money does suck, but then we probably eat a lot healthier than our rich counterparts, our imagination is better as we make our own entertainment, and our dd has the benefit of having her mummy stay at home with her making cakes and scones.

You've also not got to be proud! I can tell you lot as no-one knows me here, but I once took some toys out of a bin, cleaned them and gave them to dd! They were bloody good toys! A nice little car that we knew she'd love, and a train engine that goes round and round. We felt a bit desperate at the time, but she'll never know and she gets a lot of enjoyment from them! Also people think all her clothes come from next, whereas in reality they come from Scope and Oxfam!

This year we might even start making our own wine! See how much fun it is being poor!

[Joe1]

Rhubard, you cant beat homemade wine, my dad is brill at it and its great for sitting in the garden in the summer, but be warned it goes down very nicely.

[robinw]

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[celestine]

Having started this thread has really got me thinking. Reading back on my first message I can't believe what a spoilt cow I sounded. Star, no apology necessary - probably if I had read my original message I would have lost patience with me too. Also strange to think that someone would actually be jealous of me! Shows how self absorbed I can be that I forget about what I do have. Rationally I am aware of how much I have and I know I should appreciate it more but sometimes I am prone to terrible fits of good old fashioned jealousy. But you're right Tigermoth money does give you more choices but then I think should we be able to be happy no matter how little we have? Is that when you know you've reached true fufilment? Anyway have found this soul searching very theraputic and I think Robinw you are right to an extent. Perhaps I'm not happy (which makes me feel even more guilty as I should be)and I do think I'm looking for something else somewhere. So when people say be yourself and be happy I wonder what that means. Anyway back to something a little less heavy, Rhubarb thanks for the cash-saving tips. Am going to set myself a challenge and see how low we can get our food bill.

[Crunchie]

Celestine. Your post sounds about like our spending habits. i earn the 30K and we are lucky to get a company car as well, but our spending is very like yours. In fact we overspend by a couple of hundred pounds a month. Usually I get a bit of extra commission and can pay off credit cards about once a year. Like you I moan about the fact we have no money, and that is because we spend too much really. I try to economise and it lasts about a week. I can't justify new clothes for me or extra treats, but then we go and do them anyway. However we have decided to relook at our lives and try to downsize a bit. To earn that money I spend up to 4 hrs a day commuting and something has got to give. We have worked out if we were good we could live off £25K and we are looking at ways of earning this together, but leaving me a chance to see my babies during the week (I leave before they are awake and get about 15 mins at night), if the trains are delayed I don't see them from one day to the next.

I know I am lucky and can earn this money (my dh doesn't/can't earn equivilent) and I sound a right moaner complaing about lack of money when I have just bought a widescreen TV!!!!! Our old one blew up and I justified it since we don't go out much (!) and I am due a bonus!!

Oh well and am just and old whinge bag, but I also feel really poor when I can't just go and buy a new pair of trousers unless they are less than £20!