Random: anyone know anything about 1970's Egypt (FGM/Amputation related)

[charlietangoteakettlebarbeque]

Hello, this thread is what you might call a long shot.

Sorry - don't know where to post (have already posted on Chat)

I am embarking on writing my first novel. A section of it is going to be set in 1970s Egypt. I have been reading up on Wiki etc but its all a bit complex and I am muddled. And I know from personal experience, that when I am muddled MN can usually fix it

Long shot...but did anyone here live or visit Egypt, or have any knowledge about the politics / religion of the country at the time? I know the basics, but if anyone can contribute what they know about it and simplify it, I would be eternally grateful. Any personal experiences would be really helpful too.

Things I am thinking about in particular are - amputation used as punishment for theft; and female genital mutilation. Any info about anything to do with Egypt in 1970s at all would be very useful. I have printed off a load of stuff to read, and have ordered a book, but its a lot to get through and I am feeling overwhelmed.

I am not confident that anyone will reply, I know its a weird request. Here is hoping though [crossed fingers]

thanks

[alteredimages]

I have never heard of amputation being used as punishment for theft in Egypt, then or now. The Egyptian justice system is based structurally on the French model and the Napoleonic code with the proviso that no laws can be made which contravene Islamic law. Corporal punisments in sharia law are very rarely applied anywhere, they are an option of last resort not a routine sanction. The Egyptian penal system does not allow their use, though the death penalty does exist for cases of murder, and I think rape. Christian and Jewish laws are used for the personal status laws (divorce, inheritance, etc) of Christian and Jewish citizens.

FGM did and does happen, quite often around the age of puberty. None of my in laws had it done, even those now into their sixties and it is definitely more of a problem outside the cities, though it must happen here too.

Egypt in the 70s generally was shaped by the '73 war which restored some national pride after 1967, Sadat's creation of a political party and the consequent oligarchy which built up around it, bread riots and student unrest in 77 and state security war on the muslim brotherhood and marxists. Fashions were very western, the hijab was almost never seen, alcohol much more widely available than now.

I did not live in Egypt in the 70s but I live here now with my PIL and they like to reminisce!

[charlietangoteakettlebarbeque]

Hello Altered, thank you so much for replying. Very helpful indeed.

Perhaps I am thinking of Saudi Arabia in regards to the punishment of cutting off a thief’s hand? Can you shed any light on that at all? On Wiki it states that amputation for criminal punishment is still happening.

With regards to FGM, my mum lived in Egypt in the 70’s – she said she attended a wedding where the bride and groom (and witnesses) went into another room, where they ‘tested’ whether she was still a virgin by checking to see if the stitching (from FGM) was still in place. Afterwards, the white cloth with the blood on it was shown to the guests as proof that she was still in fact virgin. Can you shed any light on that? My mum’s memory is a bit hazy and she doesn’t like talking about it .

My father wanted to have myself and my sister ‘done’ – and so my mum divorced him. I am very interested in this subject but know next to nothing about it. I am going to embark on some research, but talking to people like you I find much more helpful and insightful. (so thank you for replying)

Can you shed any light on stoning? Do you (or your in laws) have any stories?

My father lived in a place called Al Hemia Al Gadida in Cairo – have you heard of it?

[alteredimages]

I am not well informed about the Saudi justice system but I think they do use amputation. They certainly do use caning and the death penalty, though not sure how it is carried out.

Again, in Egypt there is no stoning. Death sentences are carried out by hanging, or in some cases I think firing squad for military cases.

Re: the bloody cloth this does still happen, though not necessarily linked to FGM. Now it happens more in villages and outside the cities. What happens is that the first time the bride and groom have sex the bloody napkin is produced and shown to waiting relatives (often they are standing below the balcony) as proof that the bride's hymen was intact. Needless to say, most Cairenes would be horrified and would not allow this to happen with their daughters, but it does still exist occasionally. There is also a very buoyant market in hymen reconstruction surgery.

I have indeed heard of el helmiya il gideeda though I have not visited it. It is in Old Cairo so there are a lot of old buildings there but it is not a particularly wealthy area now. It is where the wealthy built their mansions in the first two thirds of the 19th century before Cairo's focus moved west to the banks of the Nile. There is a desciption of an old house in al helmiya in Ahdaf Soueif's The Map of Love. I will try to think of other English sources which feature it.

[charlietangoteakettlebarbeque]

Altered, again thank you.

I am so happy and surprised that you know el helmiya il gideeda. As you can see from my spelling of it, I know next to nothing about it. I visited when I was 11, and I loved it so much. The buildings were falling down, and it was very poor, but I felt so at home there. Very interesting to know that is where the rich built their mansions. Really interesting to know a bit of history about it. Feeling quite emotional about it I am going to google Ahdaf The Map of Love now.

In regards to the bloody napkin. Would it be out of the realms of possibility that it could be linked to FGM?

Interesting to know that hymen reconstruction is going on!!

[alteredimages]

I am afraid I really don't know enough about FGM to say whether the bloody napkin could have a link to FGM. There are also degrees of FGM, I had thought that the kind most comminly practiced here was type 2 where (I think) the labia and the clitoris are removed but nothing is stiched shut. That is type 1 which I think was quite common in pharaonic times and may have more of a presence in upper egypt. Maybe you could contact the NGOs involved in the Kamla project against FGM. Also try Nawal al Saadawi's books. She is a feminist writer from Egypt but she first qualified as a doctor and worked in rural areas in the 50s and I think she might talk about FGM.

I forgot to say the first time too that Ahdaf Soueif's In the Eye of the Sun would be a good source for early 70s general Cairo atmosphere, though her protagonist is upper class and lives in Zamalek. It deals tangentially with Sadat's crackdown on political dissent too.

[charlietangoteakettlebarbeque]

thank you thank you thank you for those references. Will be looking them up and buying some shiny new books.

[BelleOfTheBorstal]

The Map of Love is an amazing book and well worth reading.

[charlietangoteakettlebarbeque]

Hello Belleoftheborstal (great name)

As soon as payday hits, I will be ordering it

[BelleOfTheBorstal]

Fabulous. It's one of those books that I will never forget.

[charlietangoteakettlebarbeque]

Belle - can I ask, what made you want to read it? Do you have ties with Egypt, or an interest in it?

[charlietangoteakettlebarbeque]

Altered - do you know about a square called Salah El-Deen?

We used to go there when I visited, in my memory it was a wonderful place that came alive at night - I wondered if it still exists?

[BelleOfTheBorstal]

I found it in a second hand bookstore and liked the premise, so I bought it.
I don't have any links to Egypt whatsoever, I am just an avid reader.

[alteredimages]

Sorry for the silence. It's the first day of eid today so lots of preparations over the past couple of days.

Yes I have heard of Salah el Deen Square and it still exists! It is right behind the refai mosque directly under the citadel. Good grilled meat near alrefa'i.

Thinking more about 1970s Egypt, have you thought of films? The cinema scene was still very vibrant then and most are on youtube, some subtitled in English.

[charlietangoteakettlebarbeque]

Hello! Only just stumbled upon this thread, thank you for replying. Happy Eid!

So the square is still there huh? I remember an albino guy used to play the bongos at night there. Also remember a bloke who had no legs, scooting around on a skateboard, begging. The smell of the hubbly bubbly, the hustle and bustle. I just loved it there. I really want to go back.

No, I haven't thought about the cinema scene - I will do a bit of research on that.. Thank you