MNHQ transphobia guidelines part 2

[QueenStromba]

First thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2120841-MNHQ-are-going-to-decide-what-constitutes-transphobia-on-MN-What-advice-guidelines-would-you-give-them?

Sitestuff thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2117350-MNHQ-now-email-posters-with-how-to-get-around-the-talk-guidelines?

The thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2107862-Following-on-from-the-TERF-thread?

[HercShipwright]

That'll teach me to write a long post when the thread is almost full. :(

[GarlicJulyKit]

marking my confused place here

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

I'm here though surely it's all been said. Surely?

[QueenStromba]

I felt we were all finally getting somewhere so it would be a shame for the thread to come to an artificial end.

[SevenZarkSeven]

I got the last post!!!!!

But no-ones gonna read it :(

It was in reply to you herc!

[SevenZarkSeven]

buffy and tunip I feel a bit tired too.

[SevenZarkSeven]

As evidenced by the fact that I am going Waaaayyyyyyyyyyy off topic with my posts now

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

Tilly was saying interesting stuff - maybe she has more!

[SevenZarkSeven]

WhenTheRead's conclusion is teh right one (near the end of teh other thread)

[ICanHearYou]

i don't feel like a man without a penis

No, neither do I.

[QueenStromba]

I don't think it's way of topic at all Seven. It's getting to the crux of why it's important that women are allowed to be gender critical.

[HercShipwright]

Ah. seven, I feel your pain - I'm quite often the only woman in the room. And I have a lot more trouble overseas (I have an international role) than I have ever had here. But my point, such as it was, was that there are key things which mitigate against gender/sex/whatever-we-are-or-should-be calling it bias and one of those is, as you correctly identify, age (or rather track record) but another one, which should be open to everyone regards of their age, is educational clout. And many girls are denied the opportunity to get this not because they can't get it due to not being capable, but because the way education is organised and delivered often (not always) enforces negative things for girls. Whether that's being steered towards inappropriate subjects (for them), given reduced opportunities, or being subjected to rowdy boys disrupting lessons or inherent institutional bias telling them things like 'boys are better at maths' - the result is often the same. Girls come out of education either less well qualified or inappropriately qualified or apologising for their qualifications. And thus the sad tale of doom begins.

It's not an easy fix though, because, for sure, forcing all girls to do STEM STEM and only STEM is just as bad (worse maybe) as assuming they won't want to do that. The push for girls to do STEM really annoys me (although I read maths) because some of them just don't want to (e.g. my girls) and forcing anyone to do anything qua girl is just plain asshat wrong.

Incidentally, my girls aren't uninterested in STEM because they are all pink and subservient. They are uninterested because, compared to what they want to be doing (creative arts) STEM doesn't ring their bell. And that's fine by me because as humans they should have the choice.

[SevenZarkSeven]

lol @ coats

lolol @ studying

It's appalling isn't it. You gotta laugh or you'll cry type stuff.

I once went to an industry jolly which was an oktoberfest style thing complete with women with blonde plaits and those special dresses giving out steins. You can guess how I got on at that one. Bloody hell. Even though I was neither wearing the kit, nor dispensing beer, I was put in the category of "women who are there to be leered at, propositioned and maybe felt up" because, you know, blonde. Fun fun fun. And what kind of world do we even live in where it is still a corporate entertainment "thing" to be waited on by "attractive" women

[HercShipwright]

Yeah, that was totally off topic wasn't it. Sorry. :(

[ppplease]

Buffy. Following on from the other thread.

I dont suppose I knew that essentially you are working in a predominately male environment? Or that the bosses are mainly male?

I think that it is noble that you are trying to make things better for other women, but what about yourself right here, and right now?
I care not whether you dye your hair etc etc. It may not make a difference. [I would be sorely tempted to do it to see if it did. It would make for an interesting experiment]

Do you think it would make a difference?

[GarlicJulyKit]

For new readers - which I hope we'll have here - Chunderella wrote this near the end of the last thread. It explains the beginning of why "we" don't like being told it's transphobic to raise questions about trans* people's entitlements to gendered spaces.

When MNers discuss this we are talking about harm to women that has already been done by transjacktivists.
They have already managed to neuter online feminist fora, spaces where women can discuss our oppression and the biology around it.
They have already gained influence in academia, in culture.
There are already women in women's prisons with people who have penises.
This is not theoretical, not bogeymen or strawman, it is happening. In comparison, women have inflicted no such on men because we do not have that power.

There was also much interesting exploration of what gender actually means, both in general and personally.

[QueenStromba]

Where were the fit men in lederhosen?

[ppplease]

So transwomen are not in male prisons, but transmen are in women prisons?

[SevenZarkSeven]

herc yes agree with all of that

I went to a single sex school and we just got on with what we got on with and that was fine. No genderising of subjects.

So I guess that is part of teh reason I ended up at a university that just did sciencey things really and actually being in a huge minority, and with a lot of blokes who were really geeky, it was all fine. I have always got on more with geeky blokes I guess ("proper" ones not just normal blokes who like computer games if you know what I mean) who seem to me to be less sexist. I guess because in those days anyway they were considered to be a bit abnormal and thus more accepting of others who didn't fit in and to be brutally honest maybe having a girl or two around who would talk to them was a bit of a welcome novelty It was a kind of loads of non conformist (whether by accident or desing) people thrown in together and we all got along marvellously

[HercShipwright]

Seven - one thing (sort of a cross between a meeting and a conference - I can't be more specific because it would out me) I was at, the 'jolly' was going to a samba school (the conference was in Rio). There were I think 5 women in the group of 50 people there. It was just appalling. The drumming was...ok I suppose. The practically naked dancers? Not so much. The only people who were uncomfortable were the Brits - there were 5 of us, 4 men and me. I am fairly sure the men would have been uncomfortable even had I not been there. They were all very nice. Everyone else (apart from the other women) threw themselves into the whole horrendous experience with abandon. One of the Brits made the comment that it was as bad as he imagined a lap dancing bar might be. :(

Another conference (and this was a proper conference) I was with a group of male colleagues (all Brits this time) who wanted to carry on the drinking after the meal. I don't drink but I was fine with that, I'd been out on the lash with them before in other European cities and they had never not stayed the rift side of the health and safety and decorum line. At about 3am the only place left open in the vicinity of our hotel was a strip/karaoke bar. Not one of them could understand why I wasn't keen to go in there 'but we're only going in for the drinks' was the plaintive cry. Luckily I exerted my power of veto and we went back to the hotel. I was however told some days later that I was 'no fun'. :(

[SevenZarkSeven]

Well that was the question I was asking myself, Queen.

[TillyTellTale]

My stuff isn't really very interesting.

It's all "waaaaah! 'Snot Fair!" But it got me through a lot of "but girls don't do that!" reactions so it's probably too firmly ingrained to change, even if I could find another substitute for a backbone.

True equality means recognising an oppressed group contains all human variations, from living saints to absolute bastards, and lots of normal-ish people in the middle. As such, it's my duty not to deny the evidence of my own eyes, that, frankly, some people are awful, some of them being transwomen. Who are everything unpleasant said on all the MN threads I've been reading. But there's some pretty bloody decent transwomen too.

It's not an easy fix though, because, for sure, forcing all girls to do STEM STEM and only STEM is just as bad (worse maybe) as assuming they won't want to do that. The push for girls to do STEM really annoys me (although I read maths) because some of them just don't want to (e.g. my girls) and forcing anyone to do anything qua girl is just plain asshat wrong.

Some people don't actually get the idea that restricting opportunities based on gender is wrong in itself. They think the issue is just that we have the wrong stereotypes.

It's the same kind of pseudo-liberal thinking that excuses people who find it less challenging to assume that a girl playing with toy lorries is exhibiting transgender behaviour than to accept that actually, gender roles are not set in stone. Some girls like lorries, some boys like lorries, some girls like dolls, some boys like dolls. I like to hope this issue can be solved by more feminism.

[SevenZarkSeven]

ppplease what do you think would happen to a transman in a male prison?

What do you think would happen to a transwoman in a male prison?
What do you think would happen to a woman in a male prison?
What does in fact happen to many men in male prisons?

There is a reason that if most people had a choice they'd choose not to be locked up in close proximity with a bunch of criminal men.