Concern for Neighbour's Children

[LisaV]

This is a difficult one, but I'd really appreciate some advice on this.

We moved into our house just under 2 years ago. Our neighbours were noisy right from the beginning, but we have put up with it. She has a son from a previous marriage (21 and training to be a DJ, Lord help us!) and she also has a little girl with her current partner. Now the little girl is 8 years old and we used to invite her into our house as she was interested in the baby. I soon found out that she could neither read nor right, but she wasn't a bad kid, a bit mithering, but if you were firm with her, she was ok.

In the summer we were invited to a BBQ by the said neighbours and I went along. The mum confided that the little girl had been diagnosed with ADD and was now on Ritalin. I was quite shocked as my mum fosters kids and this girl was in no way worse than the kids my mum had (has). She was full of energy but not over the top. The family have always been loud and we have often heard them shouting at her and she has given as good as she gets.

During the BBQ the mother and father drunk copious amounts (nothing wrong with that I hear you say) but they were giving her Red Bull to drink! She had about 3 cans whilst I was there. At about midnight my dh came for me, I was reluctant to leave as their little girl was disturbing me. She was very tired, wrapped up in a blanket on the sofa whilst all around her adults were drinking and making lewd jokes, etc. Her mum even said to me "I don't know how you can do that, I never have the patience to spend any time with her". After that night we vowed to have nothing more to do with them.

The problem is that I have heard them come in drunk a few times, about 1, 2am and the little girl has got up and is screaming and running around. They have had parties at 4am and I have clearly heard her with them. Tonight I have just got ready for bed, it is 10.55pm and I heard her crying. I listened in and heard the father shouting at her, swearing, etc and the little girl was crying for her mummy. It really upset me but I don't know what is going on and I don't know what to do about it. Am I just being paranoid?

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

[LisaV]

Sorry, that should be 'read and write'!

[Joe1]

LisaV, I would talk to social services and ask their advice. I would be concerned. We dont hear anything from our neighbours and they have and boy of about 8 and a toddler. Red Bull is no good for a kid. They dont need to know who called them, it could have been any of their druken friends.

[MandyD]

The saddest thing is there must be thousands of children growing up like this. I'd hazard a guess that one of the reasons she's behind at school is that she's chronically tired from all the disturbed nights. Even without the parents partying I doubt her trainee-DJ brother is any great respecter of a child's bedtime?

I really wouldn't have a clue what to do to help if you're not close enough friends with them for them to accept something like she could come to your house for a break a couple of nights a week or anything like that. Then you might find they take right advantage of your kindness...

I guess you could call the NSPCC helpline, this is in no way reporting the neighbours for cruelty or anything like that, you'd just be able to get some advice on how best to help.

[Loobie]

I faced a similiar dilema with friends of ours.They have 6 yo twins and a 3 yo all girls.They were ok to start with but have recently (in the last year)gone way off the rails they have started taking all sorts of drugs,cocaine,extasyand cannabis,all in front of the kids.They have friends round with their kids and the friends are doing the same.All the kids get sent upstairs to play and basically run riot while the adults get off their face.The girls are fed a tin of pasta shapes between the three of them for their dinner every night then say we're starving after obviously not eating enough but are sent back upstairs.Thry live in a split level house which has 7 levels in it,last year the girls set fire to a bed in the top level while the mother sat downstairs in the bottom level,they have flooded from sixth level down through to first,have been up in the middle of the night and have drowned the family pet,the older ones have been left responsible for feeding and changing the younger one while she was still in nappies.I am beside myself with worry about something happening to these kids and i know it's going on so i called social services and reported my concerns,but it seems this was to no avail as the kids are still in the same situation so i dont know what else i can do.

[Pupuce]

Loobie - I think you should call social services again ! Maybe ask to speak to the "head".

LisaV... I would call NSPCC for advice and the social services. Is the Mum of that little girl nice when she is sobber ? If so, maybe you can try to help as MandyD has suggested or ask social services how you could help. I don't suppose you know anyone who goes to school with that little girl ? Is raising the issue at her school an option ? I don't know. or maybe to her GP ?
These children don't deserve to be treated like this ! If "we" can do something to raise some sort of alarm, it is our "duty" to do so.

[Kia]

What about the child protection officer at your local police station? I deal with one quite alot and find him very very sympathetic. They are much easier to get in touch with, that's their job - to be available. They can usually put you in touch with a 'named' social worker or even do it for you.

[mollipops]

LisaV
I would definitely seek out someone in a position to deal with this, even if only for your peace of mind, not to mention the well-being of this girl. This is child abuse, no way around it.
One of our neighbours worry us in a similar way - they do not have the wild parties etc but we often hear them yelling at their children (a boy and girl aged 5 and 7), calling them awful names and swearing at them in language I couldn't repeat here. IMO verbal abuse can often do as much lasting damage as physical abuse, as it crushes a child's self-image and confidence - bruises heal but mental scars don't.
You are NOT just being paranoid - this is not an acceptable situation. Please go to the proper authority or police in your area...The sad part is there are so many other (worse) cases around, sometimes there just aren't the resources to deal with every family with these kinds of problems.

[robinw]

message withdrawn

[sara7]

Robinw
I think that remark to Lisav about enjoying a good debate was uncalled for.
For those of us who have read the thread on working mums know exactly what your getting at and it isn't v nice to chase Lisa around the board preaching to her.
She was asking for advice and help not your catty coments.
Please grow up.

[Lil]

Lisav, you must feel really frustrated, I know I would be. You have to help, for your own piece of mind, and becaue there's no-one else to speak up for that little girl. I was worried by you post because of your mentioning of red bull. It gives a buzz because it is REALLY high in caffeine, and is no wonder they think the girl has ADD. It must be making her hyper. God knows what ritalin on top of that will do, but its not good news. When it comes to children I really believe you have to put them first - sorry I've no experience to help - I guess its easy to preach!

[TigerMoth1]

Loobie, your story sounds horrific. From what you've said it seems a clear case of neglect. I really hope you can contact someone who will act as Pupace and Kia have suggested, someone like the head of the social services or a child protection officer.

Incidently, if Social services are dragging their feet, could you tell them about the fire risk? Any failure to act puts not just these children but anyone in neighbouring houses at risk. Does the council want to be held responsible for this?

This tactic worked in another instance: I knew of someone who needed urgent extra help with an infirm relative who was forgetting to turn off the gas cooker etc. They phoned social services and made a fuss about this. Action was immediate.

LisaV, IMO your story is a little less clear cut, though it sounds bad. Is the child already under the attention the social services in some way, because of her medical condition and inability to read and write? I assume her school must be very alert to this? Keeping a child up late during adult parties and shouting at them is definitely not good practice. Does it happen all the time?Giving a child Red Bull to drink is IMO bizarrre and a real no no. The mum's throwaway comment to you could have had something to do with the amount of alcohol she had consumed. I suppose I'm saying, yes, do alert social services, but don't assume that the parents are totally beyond the pale.

Can you consider keeping in friendly contact with them for the time being? That gives the girl nearby support that's right on her doorstep. This could mean so much more to her than you realise. You may be able to ask her some neutral questions sometime, carefully worded about 'shouting' and 'getting enough sleep' to see how she feels about things at home. Also, if you can keep talking to the mother, perhaps you can bring up the Red Bull subject. (It seems strange, to say the least, to give an energy drink to a child who's already on the lively side and is taking medication for ADD). After all, the girl drinking Red Bull was something that you directly witnessed when the mother invited you to her house. If you mention hearing shouting, she could get more hostile, since it happened without you being present.

I could have read this all wrong, so sorry if this is the case. I don't think you are being paranoid, LisaV.

[Marina]

Sorry to hear about this, LisaV, it must be very upsetting to hear a child in apparent distress. I would not say you were paranoid, given the other information you have about this family.
I bet this is really obvious, sorry if you've already thought of it, but you mention your mum fosters. She may therefore have some good contacts at Social Services, who will be aware of her own expertise in dealing with troubled children, and act promptly if you jointly raise the alarm.
I can't take Red Bull so goodness knows what it's doing to a vulnerable little girl.
And, it can't be very pleasant living with a small child next door to such noisy and anti-social people. I hope your sleep is not suffering too much!

[Kia]

Yes that bit about support on her doorstep, is excellent. We are currently doing a similar thing for a friend of my son's whose mother has remarried and he is not getting along with the new stepfather. He knows he can come round to ours whenever he wants, but we've made it as normal an offer as we can make it in order that he doesn't feel under pressure or embarassed that his friend's parents 'know'. My son is actually much more upset about this than his friend is aware, since he occasionally stays the night there and tells us new dad 'shouts quite alot'.

[LisaV]

RobinW - what would you like me to do exactly, go up to the mother and accuse her of abusing her child?

I take on board what you have all said, and thanks for the advice. Tigermoth - I too would have thought that if she has been diagnosed with ADD that social services would be keeping an eye on her anyway, and surely the school cannot fail to notice her lack of education. As you have said, it is less clear cut as to what is happening exactly.

I did make friends with the little girl when we first moved in here and we invited her in a few times and she even came for her tea once or twice. But then I found that she was calling as soon as she got in from school and she was very reluctant to leave. I had a small baby to bring up and found her difficult to deal with. She is quite hyper, but not abnormally so, the poor thing is probably continally over-tired and is perhaps living on nervous energy.

Anyway, we found that we were being used as babysitters, especially when one day her parents locked her out whilst they visited friends. The girl called here and we had to look after her all day until they came back. We told them we were not happy with this and after that she stopped coming round. Thing is, this could just be the way they bring up their children, so should I really interfere? Lots of parents shout and swear at their kids, lots of kids have been diagnosed with ADD who probably didn't have it, lots of kids don't get much attention from their parents, but can we really say this is abuse? Or just a different lifestyle?

I really don't know what to do for the best. I obviously can't talk to the mother, she seems friendly enough during the day, but what would I say to her? Also, if they do find out that I have spoken to anyone they could make trouble for us, we already have a noise problem with them, they have the capability to make our lives hell.

Next time I see her I will ask her in and question her a little. But unless she is being physically or sexually abused, which I honestly don't think so, or neglected in a serious way, there is little the social services can do anyway.

[Lizzer]

Lisav, I know that it does seem like 'well what's the point, there are thousands of children worse off than her' but I'd think very carefully before completely dismissing the idea of contacting someone about your concerns. I would perhaps contact the nspcc just to talk about it rather than name names at this point, they will be able to give you a better idea about how you stand. BTW I remember from a different thread ages ago whereabouts you're living (unless I'm entirely mistaken!) and I lived there too for a few yrs. I don't know the area you are in but we were very close to the town centre and saw this repetition of 'lifestyle' choices again and again, from door to door. It never directly affected us (except when windscreen wipers etc were pulled off my car by some of the kids at regular intervals)but if I had got to know any of the children personally, or indeed had i been a parent myself at the time, I would've felt in a very awkward situation like you. It must feel overwhelming trying to decide if you can make a difference to this girl's life, but please think about her future. I was reading an article about drug abuse in the Sunday Times and I really liked a line that said we have to stop looking at addicts as criminals and start seeing them as the abused, unloved children that they all were once...

[TigerMoth1]

LIsaV, I've been in similar situations myself, persistant little guests knocking at the door while having my baby to look after. I've also been used as a babysitter without my consent, saying goodbye to a five-year-old visitor only to be told that she'll be playing outside until her mother comes home..... so what then?

It's very difficult to know what to do. I think Lizzer is absolutely right about you contacting the NSPCC. At the very least they may be able to tell you what signs of serious abuse and neglect to look for - and at what point you could expect social services to intervene.

The neglectful parent I knew did get reported by others and over a period of a year, it became obvious that the police and (I assume) social services were keeping increasingly close tabs on things. In the end, I heard her children were taken into care, but I had left the area by then so I'm not 100% sure of the outcome.

Remember, if you do phone up social services, you may not be the only one they have heard from. The loud shouting and wild family behaviour etc must have been noticed by others.

Also, can you set some boundaries regarding when and for how long she visits, so this girl still knows she's welcome at yours, but not all the time?

[Rhiannon]

This may sound daft to some of you but good parents have usually been brought up by good parents themselves. If they have no idea of bedtimes, swearing, drinking etc as being unacceptable behaviour then the cycle will continue.

Perhaps they haven't even thought about the damage they are doing to their child.

Unfortunately there is no parenting manual or class that we are forced to attend.

Both myself and my husband were brought up in caring homes with warmth,love, affection, food and bedtimes. This we carry on to our own children.

I'd advise you to speak to your Health Visitor about your concerns. R

[Rhiannon]

Batters, I didn't mean that you can't be a good parent if you had crap one's yourself just that they may need help to adjust to what is acceptable. Oh I don't know, I'm off to bed. Night. R

[LisaV]

I telephoned my mum about this and she suggested that I speak to my HV, which is what I shall do. She's a pretty useless HV to me and dd, so this is her chance to redeem herself!

Lizzer - yes I do live in Preston and quite close to the town centre. Just up the road from me is the 'red light' area of Preston, a row of seedy brothels and pushers - nice! Luckily my immediate area is fine, but the seedy area seems to be moving closer every year! However I wouldn't say that my neighbours were in that class just yet.

Tigermoth, we did try and set boundaries for the girl to come and visit, but she would push them every time. As you said about your 5 year old visitor, I felt awful telling her she had to go as she was just left out on the street. Sometimes she would tell us that she hadn't had any lunch/dinner and we didn't know whether to believe her or not. However since the incident when they left her all day with us, she has rarely come back. I think they have banned her. I was also asking her lots of questions about her homelife which she probably told them about.

I wouldn't say that her mum and dad don't love her, but as Rhiannon says, if they have been brought up like that, they probably don't know that they are doing anything wrong. However it is disturbing listening to them screaming at her, I even heard her mother once tell her that no wonder she didn't have any friends as she wasn't a nice person. So I will have a word with my HV and see what she says.

Thanks for all the advice, I'll let you know what happens.