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Anyone know how to get out of signed nursery contract - advice needed

13 replies

Lucy1977 · 23/01/2007 18:12

Hi everyone

Oh I feel really sick and fed up. Part of me wonders if I'm being over protective or paranoid but this is the situation:
1st Nursery let me down a week or so ago so spent all last week looking into other nurseries and childminders
Found a nice childminder but she couldn't do the days I needed (she minds for a friend of mine too)
Found a nice nursery close by - good location for us, it's only just opened in December. Went ahead and signed paperwork today for DD to start once a wk beginning of Feb then 3 days a week from beginning of March.
My friend just called now and told me that her childminder (the one I liked but couldn't do the days) used to go to the same childminder meetings as the owner of this new nursery and said she (the owner) was the only one of them that always had spaces - that she wasn't very popular and always left her mindees in their car seats whilst everyone else's mindees played. She spent the whole meeting on the phone trying to get new business.

The owner of this new nursery is quite hands on in the nursery as she cooks the meals daily and she used to be a social worker. She is counted in the ratio figures and has been in the nursery 2 out of the 3 times I've been there (every time I have turned up without an appointment).

Do you think I should re-think my choice of nursery? I mean it is brand new and I've liked the manager there who is a (young) girl who will be also looking after DD .

Thanks
Lucy

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Kiff · 23/01/2007 19:57

are you suggesting the owner is such a witch she'll actively sabotage a nice manager? It doesn't sound too awful.

Perhaps the woman was a bit too 'business like' (i.e. wanting more money etc) for childminding - nothing to say her nursery won't be good. Lacking in personal touch.

Why not see how it goes in Feb - keep eyes on other possibilities. In a nursery - since she won't be only adult there - and given her experience - I reckon the worst that would happen is that your Dd would be bored.

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Lucy1977 · 23/01/2007 21:43

Hi Kiff

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I got on ok with the owner of the nursery - had ideas that I liked about her plans for the nursery and how she likes the children to all sit down to homecooked fresh food etc. don't think she will sabotage someone working for her. I was concerned because my friend's CM had said that whilst the owner was still working as a CM she attended one of the CM meetings and left the babies/children in their car seats when the other kids were playing and she always had vacancies when our area is crying out for CMs.

If my DD is bored like you say, do you think the signs will be easy to pick up on with a 13 month old? THis is my first baby so I don't know.

Can I get out of the contract now I've signed up? I was thinking the worst case would be that I'd have to pay the first months nursery fees?

THanks
Lucy

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twinklebob · 23/01/2007 22:50

hi lucy, i am actually a nursery manager my self..
managers should not be counted in staff ratios..i am there to over see the entire nursery, if there was a problem and she had to deal with it, that would that mean that 1 member of staff is away from the children and the ratios would not be correct.

Ratios are 0-2 yrs 1:3
2-3 yrs 1:4
3-5 yrs 1:8

Look at your contract thoroughly, you have not taken the place yet, have you paid a deposit.. in our setting, we ask for deposit on booking which secures the place, but if the person decides to leave, then the deposit is not refunded but we HAVE to inform them of this in writing..if you were not given the correct information at the time of booking, then you have every reason to leave.

In the end, your child is your most treasured possession, check peoples qualifications, staffing structures and the qualifications of the staff looking after your child. these should be displayed within the nursery brochure or in the building somewhere. A nursery nurse must hold a level 3 NVQ or equivelent. A nursery assistant, level 2, must NOT have sole charge of any children unsupervised. I am concerned about the fact that she is counted in ratios and what facilities are put in place for her having to leave the care of the children to another carer?
If i can help any more... ask away. Good luck!
Twinklebob.x

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Lucy1977 · 24/01/2007 16:38

Hi Twinklebob

Thanks for your reply - gave me lots of information and facts that I didn't know. I'm in Scotland - does that make any difference do you know?

At the moment as all the kids/babies are in the same room do you know how to work out the ratios? For example the other day when I popped in they had about four 4 yr olds, two 16 month olds and two 6 month babies. There was 1 lady sitting doing activity with 4 yr olds, 1 woman with the 6 month olds and the 16 months were playing together next to the babies. The manager came and let me in and was chatting to me so not looking after any children. Does that sound enough?

So you dont think I'm being a bit OTT to ask to be introduced to each staff member and them tell me how qualified they are? I asked if all their staff were qualifies and they said most were but some are working towards their qualification. Does that mean then that if you aren't qualified they have to be supervised whilst looking after the children? What are the ratios then?

Do you think I should forget this nursery or right down my concerns and have a mtg with the manager(or owner?).

there is another nursery that is good but the food is awful - I could perhaps pack lunh for DD?

Thanks

Lucy

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twinklebob · 24/01/2007 23:20

hi lucy, as i said the ratios for under 2 yrs is 1 : 3. With 4 under 2's there should have been 2 people just for them. so in answer to your question..NO that was not enough, there should have been at least 3 members of staff. you are def not being OTT, you need to know who is looking after your children, and are they qualified and experienced to do so? You could ask what qualifications they are doing, level 2 is a nursery assistant, level 3 is a nursrey nurse. All unqualified staff should be supervised. Also check if everyone has been CRB checked ( criminal records bureau) ALL staff need to have a current certificate for the nursery they are working in. You could ask to read their policies too, that is always a good indication as to what to expect from your nursery.

Out of interest, what is wrong with the food in the other nursery, i would love to know as i plan the menu's for our nursery and am interested in how others do theirs! You could pack a lunch, what hours are you thinking of using for your child, if they are in full day care ie longer than 6 hours, they should be provided with at least one hot meal!

Twinklebob

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Lucy1977 · 25/01/2007 13:09

Hi Twinklebob

I wasn't sure if I understood the ratios properly, like if there were two under 2s and one 4 yr old could that still be 1 adult to look after them all or from your reply I think that would require 2 adults as you can't split the care amongst age groups? (sorry if I'm not explaining that correctly, perhaps I'm getting confused because all the kids are in one room at the moment as well).

Re the menus, this place cooks (from memory) lasagne, macaroni cheese, homemade fish cakes, soups, chicken casserole, spagetti bolognese, rissotto, and desserts are fruit, yoghurt, semolina, tapoica etc.
The nursery with a poor menu (IMO) has packet cheesy pasta, ready bought Asda lasagne, chicken dippers, tinned soup, waffles with beans, tinned fruit, packet custard, tinned rice etc. (sorry can't remember most of it these are the things I rememebered looked at the schedule.

Going back to the nursery later to ask to see their staff quota - the care commission told me today that will have details of what the minimum amount of staff is.

Thanks
Lucy

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Lazylou · 25/01/2007 13:16

Hmm, this is interesting actually. Twinklebob, I was managing a pre-school not that long ago and I was counted in the ratios too, although I would rather not have been because of the amount of paperwork I had to do. In my experience, most managers are included in the ratios, or rather, can be counted within the ratios in case of emergency, for example staff shortages.

It just means that the managers can be counted if needs be. Most managers I have come across (and I'm not saying this is the way it is in every setting, by all means) refuse to work in the rooms though, even though they have been included in the ratios. Does that make sense?

Lucy, it sounds strange to me that the manager is so involved in the general day to day stuff. Sounds like maybe there is a staffing issue that you might want to consider.

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nzshar · 25/01/2007 14:16

This is interesting. There is no legal reason why a manager/owner can not be counted in numbers but it may not be ideal as paperwork etc needs to be done at some stage and therefore will leave the room understaffed.
Also if this nursery is new and still building up a clientelle then it would make sense for the owner to be hands on within the rooms. I imagine that she will employ more staff as the number of children go up after all it is a business.
My main advice is to go with gut instinct if you have major reservations about it then back off if not then give it a go.
As for the fact that she may or may have not been a great childminder(and after all it is only heresay) does not mean that her nursery may be bad. Maybe nurseries are more her thing

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Lucy1977 · 25/01/2007 14:43

Thanks LL and Nzshar for your replies.

I was really struggling to get my head around the ratios as I recall my first visit there was just the manager and one other person working and there was around 10 children in that day (can't remember ages of them but think I wrote them down in another thread). The care commission said the manager shouldn't be counted in the ratios and that's why I was to look at the staff quota as it would have what the minimum staff requirements were. I understand the point about in emergencies when a staff member is off sick etc.

I don't think the comment about the owner when she was childminding is the issue with me now, it's more about the staff numbers and if they aren't taking that seriously/within guidelines then it makes me suspicious what else they aren't doing.

Also, has anyone ever seen a changing area in a large cupboard? The building is purpose built and part of that is the area to change nappies which is off the baby's room but is like a large cupboard with extractor fan - only room for one person to change a nappy at a time but the door closes shut behind them.

To the nursery managers - have you ever shown prospective clients your staff's qualifiations?

Thanks
Lucy

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lemonaid · 25/01/2007 14:57

DS's nursery has a big board up with photos of all the staff, their names, what qualifications they have and what qualifications they are working towards.

I would ask about the staff ratios but overall it sounds as though your gut instinct is that this is a good environment, so I would be inclined to try it but keep a close eye on the staffing issue. How old is your DD?

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nurseryvoice · 25/01/2007 18:08

hi, im a nursery owner/manager
i have all my staff certificates on a wall.
so they can been seen clearly.
just for the record. managers are only allowed to be included in the ratios if there are not more than 26 children on site.
if there are more than 26 then the manager has to be supernumerary extra!!
i am always extra, as there is an enormous amount of paperwork firstly as a manager and secondly as a business owner.
ratios
if you had 1 x 21month only and 2 24 month olds in 1 room then you would have only 1 x member of staff. as the ratio is always marked down to the lowest one.
go with your gut instinct, you know you're right...

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Lucy1977 · 25/01/2007 18:20

Hi lemonaid

DD will be one in 10 days and will be a few days short of being 13 months old when I go back to work. She's quite independent - not clingy and enjoys just going off roaming to explore!

I'll drop in on the nursery tomorrow afternoon and see what the staff numbers are like then. I think I'll discuss it there and then if there aren't sufficient numbers as that will be the 4th time over 10 days that (IMO) there haven't been the full qota of staff (I didn't really understand the way the ratios worked before).

THanks for your advice and feedback.

Lucy

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Lucy1977 · 26/01/2007 11:33

Sorry I cross posted and didn't see your reply Nurseryvoice

Thanks for the info. this nursery is just starting up and has maximum 10 kids.

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