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Fascist alert.

30 replies

bauble99 · 17/12/2006 21:35

We will be opting out of Blair's 'nursery education for all pre-schoolers - free at the point of delivery' thing.

We've been offered ?7.20 an hour by our local council to provide 2 and a half hours of care/education a day. We are no longer able to ask parents to 'top-up' the difference.

?7.20 and hour will not cover our (outer London) staff salaries to look after the child for 2 and a half hours, let alone the rent, business rates, food etc.

The council have now written to us to ask if we would be prepared to offer a free place (they haven't specified if this place would be full or part-time) to a 'family in need.'

We have written back asking them to define a 'family in need.'



We have a single-mother client who works her butt off as a housekeeper in an elderly care home to support her daughters, 16 and 3 years old, and her grandchild (son of the sixteen year old daughter.) We would offer her the free place without a moments hesitation.

We would also offer the free place to a family with a child with SN, so that they could have some respite care.

We would NOT offer the place to a family who are not intending to work. We had a visit/'show-round' with a mother recently who looked around, loved our nursery, wanted to sign up and then asked - "Who pays for this?"

So. I'm outed as a Fascist. But shouldn't we be helping those prepared to help themselves?

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iPodForLifeNotJustForChristmas · 17/12/2006 21:40

I've always wondered how that scheme/scam worked - What is your usual hourly rate then? If you need to top up the goverment funded rate.

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bauble99 · 17/12/2006 21:45

Our (untrained) nursery assitants earn £6 per hour. Our qualified staff, obviously, earn more.

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iPodForLifeNotJustForChristmas · 17/12/2006 21:59

sO THE gOV. wont be doing a London premium then? Seems unfair that in one area of the country the £7:20 will go a bit further than in your sort of area.

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Pixiefish · 17/12/2006 22:01

can I just ask then- out of interest- what is the hourly rate at your nursery?

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bauble99 · 17/12/2006 22:12

Full-time (8am-6pm, five days per week) = £4 per hour.

Single days (10 hours) = £5 per hour.

Sessional (5 hours care) = £6 per hour.

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Pixiefish · 17/12/2006 22:18

ah right so the problem is that they want one to one care for this child- I see.

Got a bit startled that nursery care was over £7 an hour

Just ignore me bubble

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suedonim · 17/12/2006 22:19

I'm out of touch re nurseries but I don't understand the free place concept? Does the govt pay you for offering a free place or do you have to fund it yourself out of your overall income?

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SantaGotStuckUpTheGreensleeve · 17/12/2006 22:21

Hmm. I can see why you are annoyed - not an uncommon view - but IMO this sort of social differentiation between who does/doesn't constitute a worthy recipient of benefits/free services is the sort of decision we elect governments to make. I don't feel confortable with the idea of individual nursery owners etc choosing to ignore government guidelines, it could lead to real problems.

I daresay somebody will be along shortly to flamegrill me for that view.

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bauble99 · 17/12/2006 22:32

The thing is they want us to provide 2 and a half hours care for £7.20. Not per hour..£7.20 for the whole 2 and a half hours.

This is the problem. Even our unqualified staff earn £6 per hour. So we'd need to pay that staff member £19 to look after a child for a session that we were only paid £7.20 for. Bear in mind that we have thirteen 'pre-schoolers' in the nursery at the moment.

Do you see the problem!

We are expected to take a loss to fulfil the governments promises. No business can afford to do this.

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bauble99 · 17/12/2006 22:34

We'd need to pay our unqualified staff £15 per hour. Not £19.

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bauble99 · 17/12/2006 22:35

Greeny. Why would a parent who is not working, and who does not have a child with SN need a free nursery place?

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SantaGotStuckUpTheGreensleeve · 17/12/2006 22:38

I'm not defending the policy itself bauble, I'm saying I don't think it's the role of individual nurseries to override govt guidelines on free service provision - I think that's what elected govts are for. Naturally we don't all agree with every policy of every govt, that's why we have a democratic voting system... just my opinion.

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suedonim · 17/12/2006 22:38

Well, I don't have any ideas, Bubble, but am shocked that the govt seems to feel you should subsidise them. They wouldn't ask Tesco to provide cheap food for some people, would they?

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Caroligula · 17/12/2006 22:44

I don't agree with the policy, but I think if you are going to go along with it, it's wrong to make a judgement about the deserving and undeserving recipients. You have no idea of why a mother who is not working might need a nursery place, she might have PND and you're not privy to her medical notes, she might be being regularly beaten up by her partner, etc. etc. If I were a nursery owner, I don't think I'd want to go along with it at all, even to "deserving" recipients quite frankly. I also don't see why you should be funding places, as Suedonim said, they don't expect Tescos to provide free food.

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bauble99 · 17/12/2006 22:48

suedonim. We've opted out of all LEA grants. As a private nursery we are entitled to do this.

When we set up we quickly realised that accepting funding meant that we had to endure visits form our local 'Early Years' department which consisits, as far as we can see, of people who didn't quite make the interview for OFSTED inspection and who, at Tax-payers expense, wander around borough nurseries giving subjective - and therfore useless, advice on which particular type of paint/cardboard etc we use.

Please excuse me. I'm a bit jaded.

I think that, in exchange for the 'free place' we get a grant.

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suedonim · 17/12/2006 22:53

That all sounds so complicated, I take my hat off to you, running a nursery business, Bubble.

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bauble99 · 17/12/2006 22:59

I take my hat off to me too, sudonim. When I can remember where my head/hat is.

I'm very tired at the moment.

Caligula. IIRC, women with PND are offered respite care in the community. It takes a while to 'settle in' a child at nursery. And a child needs to attend for a while to benefit from the experience. Is/can PND be a long-term thing?

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iPodForLifeNotJustForChristmas · 17/12/2006 23:05

oh hell - its is worse than I thought £7.50 for the whole session - thats crap!!!

As a single mum who was struggling to find work until 2 weeks ago, over the last year I could really have done with a free nursery place whilst being a SAHM on benefits. It would have enable me to do voluntary work which might have helped me get paid work quicker. In a years time, if I had not worked in my chosen field I would have lost my profesional registration as an OT, and any voluntary OT work I could have done might just have saved me the cost of 3yrs at uni if I had been unable to reregister in 2007 due to lack of current practice.

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bauble99 · 17/12/2006 23:11

ipod. Thats's the thing. I know that there are people who were 'council approved' for a free place that I would meet and know deserved it. The thing is....if you could only see/know how inept our local council is...you would understand that we would be looking at the person with the freebie and wondering why they had it.

And yes Caligula, I realise that 'a need' can not always be seen. But I've been around the block enough to know that local authorities are often clueless.

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Caroligula · 17/12/2006 23:17

bauble I don't know that much about pnd other than that it can take a while to diagnose. I've no idea what support is on offer childcare-wise. My point was really that you don't know why a parent might "need" childcare when they don't work outside the home.

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Caroligula · 17/12/2006 23:19

Sorry x posted

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edam · 17/12/2006 23:21

I'm not sure how this works, but presumably you will be paid for the 'free place'? It's not an act of charity on your part, it's something you provide in return for a government grant? Then I don't think you have any business trying to work out how 'worthy' in your opinion the recipient is, tbh. Entitlement to government funding shouldn't depend on whether one meets some subjective criteria dreamt up by the owner of a business providing the funded service. Even if that owner is a lovely person, it's just not their role.

Either you want to provide the free place or not, you can't divide people into sheep or goats.

Unless you've got a spare couple of million you want to donate to a city academy of course... Mind you, you've left it a bit late to pick up the accompanying peerage.

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bauble99 · 17/12/2006 23:25

Lady Bubble of Bubbledom.

Souds about right?

Oh, I know.... You're right, of course. I suppose it's that, to corrupt and paraphrase.... "All animals/people are equal/worthy. But some are more equal/worthy than others...."

I'd still give it to the single mother who works in the care home, though.

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edam · 17/12/2006 23:31

Is it actually up to you to choose who gets the free place, though? I mean, that would be downright wrong.

Do save up for a city academy, you can insist the kids are taught that fairies live at the bottom of the garden and everything. As long as you invent a name for the belief you want to promulgate that ends in 'ism' - doesn't have to actually have any proper scientific basis. If I had a spare couple of million, I'd be sorely tempted!

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SantaGotStuckUpTheGreensleeve · 17/12/2006 23:33

But fairies do live at the bottom of the garden. Don't they?

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