What to do about an unexplained accident?

[madchad]

I have got to let off steam about this.

The short version is, I am removing my kids from nursery in 6 weeks anyway, but have real concerns about care in the 3-5s room.

Our nursery has a very 'loose' interpretation of OFSTED ratios. Apparently Wokingham District Council has told them that 1:14 for over 3s is okay if the other carer has brought a child to the loo/elsewhere is is around but not present????? I have complained three times in as many weeks about

1. 1:14 in the garden with a non-CRB checked person
   
2. 0:15 in the softplay room ie alone, while same person swept up next door. Half glass window and open door between them.
   
3. 1:15 in the soft play room.
   

Always this is at normal picking up time.
On each occasion, the fob off from management has been that the mising carer was nearby/on their way back.

Perhaps not coincidentally, I spent this morning at A&E having DD1's leg checked and x-rayed for suspected hairline fracture following an accident at nursery yesterday (thankfully all is well). No-one saw the accident, reported to DH as a minor fall that he was being told about in case she developed a bruise. So I undressed her for bath and discovered the large mark on her shin (DH was told she fell backwards off the first step of the frame).DD says that she fell off the climbing frame, and it fell on top of her. Bruise terrible today, checked at nursery myself , frame does indeed fall over, senior has seen this several times.
Hospital confirm that the injury is consistent with child's story.
Oh and no accident form......

I am too angry and upset to think straight, but my instinct is that the unseen accident was possibly a reflection of the terrible ratios.
any thoughts on what to don while I continue to beat mself up for being a bad mummy and leaving her with these unprofessional people (remarkable language restraint needed here) and muse over whether to just remove her straight away.....

[dinny]

Madchad, if I had any doubts about my childcare provider I would (and did) remove my children straight away. And contact Ofsted too.

[starlover]

i would take her out. tell local newspapers. tell all parents and report to ofsted

[starlover]

i would take her out. tell local newspapers. tell all parents and report to ofsted

[SenoraPostrophe]

I know this is not the reaction you're expecting, but your post made me laugh. dd (3) goes to preschool in Spain, where she is one of 25 pupils to one teacher, no assistants. ds comes home from nursery every other day with enormous bruises (and they usually say either "there was damage on both sides" or "bruises show up more because he has pale skin")

REally - accidents happen and bruises often look worse than they are. The staff did mention it to your dh - so they saw it (I would be really worried if they hadn't noticed). and 1-15 is actually fine for over 3s IMO, even if the one is on the other side of a window.

[madchad]

Now feel quite rational about this, thanks for the replies.
Certainly won't be keeping them in unless there are very firm assurances tomorrow. DH is now home and will tackle them tomorrow, if no joy they're out (he's very assertive!) He has the MD's ear, but we shouldn't need this to have reasonable care.OFSTED are getting a call regardless of outcome.

Senorapostophe, I do feel better after reading your post-I assume you don't pay £216 each a week in Spain.DD returns covered in bruises almost every day, which never bother me.
The Nursery Nurse who had been involved said that noone had seen either the reported fall, nor the climbing frame falling, so yes, I am worried. Hard to believe that DD wouldn't have cried too , if you could see the bruise & swelling.

[madchad]

Have now had a very positive meeting with management first thing this morning (fully expected to be removing both kids today, and had work primed) which has dealt with my immediate and future concerns in a very considerate and thorough manner. All credit to them, as my expectations were low, and I gave no noticed of wanting a 'chat'.
It's clear that a break is best for all concerned, but I least I now feel I can leave DD1 there safely for the final weeks.
Back to the nanny search!

[throckenholt]

if the climbing frame fell over who picked it back up again ? Surely the kids would not be able to do that on their own ? And why are they using a climbing frame that they know is unstable ?

I would be very concerned about their general approach to supervision and safety.

Not saying that accidents don't happen even when you are supervising - but they should be trying to minimise them through risk assessment etc.

[bubblepop]

remove your child without a doubt

[merrymum]

i agree, remove straight away and refuse to pay any money owing to them. report to offsted and council for health and safety issues, the climbing frame should not be allowed to fall over!!!!

[madchad]

I can assure you that I would have removed her + DD2 immediately if I had any further concerns whatsoever, regardless of financial implications.
I have also made calls to OFSTED and the local authority as this is too serious to be left as an internal issue.
The bright side of this is that this seems to have given them an immediate major wake up call , which will protect other kids too, not just mine. Shame that it takes a potentially serious mishap & fussy Mum to propell what should be a given.

[HappyMumof2]

sorry, but I don't know why you are leaving your child there for a further 4 weeks when you have concerns for her safety. I would pull my child out the same day I knew this had happened, if I hadn't already due to their appalling adult/child ratios.

Also, report them to Ofsted.

[mojomummy]

which nursery is this ?

[madchad]

I haven't concerns anymore, which is why I am leaving them. The whole place looks as if they are expecting OFSTED any minute.

[HappyMumof2]

sorry, but how can you not have concerns anymore??? is it not the same management, the same staff, the same building?

Just because they've cleaned up their act temporarily doesn't mean they've seen the error of their ways - it just means they are scared and know they are wrong.

[nannynick]

This 'interpretation' of ratios really gets me. I wish the standards would make it more clear as to what is meant, as childcare provisions do interpret the rules differently.

I would like to see the standards state that there must be two members of staff in each room - not in each group (how can you be caring for a child, through a solid wall!). Trouble is though, as I see it, is that our government want high quality affordable childcare, yet high quality and low money just don't go together in my view.

Good luck with your hunt for a nanny Madchad, I'm in your area ish, but alas I'm a working nanny not job hunting.

[BagelBird]

our playgroup have spent over a year writing, phoning, talking to ofsted and various council depts concerning ratios. Still we have no consistent and clear answer about this issue. They are very vague about parent helpers and any siblings they bring when on duty - whether they are allowed to be included in the ratio, if not included, whether they can at least be responsible for their own child, removing them from the overall figure and bringing down the ratio etc etc if staff have children there, whether they can be deemed responsible for their own child, bringing down total figures and also be included in the overall ratio count as an adult. We are told one thing, pannicked into thinking we need new staff/no mum with a younger child can ever do duty unless they have a babysitter to being told we have more than enough adults and younger children are allowed...Drives us spare. When you are involved in the responsibility of running a playgroup it is stressful enough and hardly anyone likes to think that they are putting children at danger or that they are breaking safety rules.
However, saying all that, I would be very concerned if no CRB person was present at times. If you reported this to Ofsted/your council Ed dept. and they found it a recurring problem, they would remove your licence and funding very quickly.