Questions about Ratios

[NotQuiteCockney]

I'm involved in reopening a parent-run childcare co-op, and have a couple of questions about ratios. I'm hoping any nursery managers/owners about can help?

1. A nursery nurse told us the staff part of the ratio has to be 50% qualified staff, 50% parents. We've never heard this from Ofstead. Was she talking rubbish, or is there some basis for this?
   
   
2. Students and trainees don't count?
   
   
3. But untrained parent volunteers do?
   
   
4. If we need three carers for the number of kids we have, presumably the carers are (individually) allowed to go off to the loo, go change a nappy, whatever, as long as no kids are left alone, and all carers are on-site? What about going off to prepare a meal? I assume they can't spend all day in another room doing paperwork, so where's the line?
   
   Thanks in advance ...

[yawningmonster]

not sure about the first question as there are different laws here but regarding going to the loo etc (which I assume would be the same there) a staff member can pop to the loo and be gone for a few minutes, here nappy changing must occur within the sight of another staff member which means that the one changing the nappy is close enough to the main area to still be in ratio. The general rule here is that staff have to be actively in ratio or able to come within minutes when needed (ie if on the loo, gone into office to grap phone, popped down hall to grab more resources etc.

[fqueenzebra]

See Standards document (Sessional Care, Surestart one, 14 standards...)

basically what you said is correct in all cases. You have to constantly monitor staff:student ratios; brief trips to the loo/nappy change/kitchen are ok.

Sorry no time to say more, kids yelling!!

1. Preschool tells me that Ofsted requires that 50% of staff must have NVQ 2 or higher level qualification. But I haven't seen that written anywhere, either....
   
   
2. Students and trainees do not count in the ratios, that is correct (this is in the Standards document).
   
   
3. "Untrained parents" can count in the ratios as long as they have health+safety & induction training.

[fqueenzebra]

sorry, it is in the 1st or 2nd standard, about staff qualifications at NVQ2 or higher.

[Hattie05]

Hi, i managed a nursery. Ofsted would like to see that you are working towards having all staff qualified, e.g by offering training to untrained staff. All staff working with under 2's have to be qualified and 50% with over 2's - ideally 100%.

No. 2 correct, students trainees don't count.

Question 3 i am not sure. I do know that some pre-schools use this method of keeping ratios so assume it is agreeable.

Qu 4- no they cannot stay in another room all day. Ideally they shouldn't be going out to prepare a meal. And in perfect surroundings toilet area would be in sight of the mainplay area, so one can assist in bathroom but still be around for the other children. At my nursery this wasn't possible, so we Ofsted encouraged us to do toilet 'runs' e.g at regular intervals, one adult should take his/her quota of ratioed children into the bathroom to use toilets. So you know you havn't left the main playroom understaffed.
Basically avoid as best you can ever having incorrect ratios for any moment of the day.
Only qualified staff should be taking children to the toilet.

Sorry this is long! hope it makes sense.

[Hattie05]

I should just clarify - qu. 2 - students/trainees who have come to you on a work placement from a college cannot count. But if you have an unqualified member of staff (i.e employed by you) who is training alongside the job, then they count provided you meet the 50% requiremnt.

[NotQuiteCockney]

When did they bring in this 50% rule? The co-op has been running for ages with (generally) a qualified nursery nurse and two parents on each shift. The kids are mostly over 2. (We've had Ofsted inspections, obviously, but not for a while.)

The parents don't really get trained up, we just work our shifts, IYSWIM. It's a bit of a special circumstance ...

[Hattie05]

How many children?

You may well be treated differently as its parent organised? don't know.

[NotQuiteCockney]

It's 12 kids max. There have been ratio problems in the past, as people weren't paying attention to the difference between under 2s and 2-3-year-olds. Also, people forgot that brought-along siblings count towards ratios.

So, as long as the 12 kids were all over 2, and as long as no additional siblings were brought along, we were fine (I think?) with one professional and two parents. (But we do generally have kids under 2, and we often have brought-along babies, belonging to a working parent.)

We are talking about moving to two professionals and two parents per shift, anyway, as numbers go up. (Or maybe two professionals and three parents, as time goes on?)

The ratios thing is funny - I find it weird that the same ratio applies for professionals and amateurs, so to speak, and for inside an Ofstead-checked nursery, and out on the street. In Canada, the ratio for under-5s (I think?) is 1 to 5. Certainly that's the lowest ratio they have.

[Hattie05]

Yes you're definitely on the right lines for increasing and making sure you include siblings and under twos.

I agree the outdoor ratios should be higher. I made a rule at my nursery that for outings it was one adult per two children under 3 years.