Germany vs UK - pros and cons

[Inaminutenow]

Just looking for some views on what the pros and cons are on living in Germany vs living in the UK. Thanks.

[Welshcake77]

I think it depends on where you are thinking of in both countries tbh. I am British and have lived in Germany for 15 years in a small but v international city.
I think I have a higher standard of living here tbh. We rent our home which is totally normal here, I don't think there is the same pressure to buy as in the UK. Employee benefits can be slightly better than in UK as far as I have experienced (30 days holiday, sometimes holiday/ Christmas pay), maternity leave and pay is v good. We have a car although we could do everything by public transport. You will find this is very good in even the smallest town. Supermarkets aren't great and I still miss the Sunday opening but you get used to be it and just have to be a bit more organised.
It's easy to travel as you are close to so many countries and there are lots if beautiful and interesting places to visit in Germany.
It can be quite bureaucratic at times which is frustrating but generally things are well organised and run smoothly.

Those are my first thoughts but I'm sure there's lots more. Will have a think and get back to you!

[Welshcake77]

Childcare (up to school age of 6/7) is accessible and more affordable than in the UK. However I find school hours (finishing at 12-1pm) daft and very limiting if you work. There is a system for after school care but I think the hours are better in the UK (although for the first time ever I am wondering if the schools here actually might be better than in the UK).

[Kundry]

Where in Germany are you thinking of?

I only know Munich - very expensive housing (think London prices) but excellent transport system. Renting is normal. Lots to do, good schools etc. However school hours assume you will be a SAHM. Lots of (largely unintended) casual racism as many have never met a black person or a Muslim. Healthcare system is good but hard to navigate if you aren't used to it and can have very different values to over here. Everything is shut on a Sunday - in smaller towns shops often shut at lunchtime on a Saturday - because every family would have a SAHM who shops in the week...

I'd quite happily live in Munich as part of a couple, think it would be better than many places here, but Bavaria as a whole - no. Especially not if I had kids and wanted to work. A friend had issues when their neighbours discovered she was unmarried - doubt anyone here would give a stuff. Even worse she mowed the lawn on a Sunday! This genuinely caused outrage - no idea what you are meant to do on a Sunday except get very bored.

[petitemom]

I think a lot will depend on where you will live (city vs smaller town), job expectations vs SAHP, and if you have kids/how old they are.

I've been in Germany about 8 months now, working for an international company in the Frankfurt area and living in a small, international city. I think of living here more in terms of overlapping themes that can be looked at in a positive or negative light depending on your attitude, how long you've been here and those factors I mentioned above. Usually when you first arrive you see them as cons but later on they could be pros.

1. Less focus on the individual, more on society as a whole
   

• Expectation to follow rules, eg everyone always obeys the green man; people getting angry if you ride your bicycle in a no-biking pedestrian zone -- con: argh, this country is so rule-bound! / pro: you know what to expect and can be sure there are no dogs or dog poo in playgrounds with 'no dogs' signs
  

• Among key rules are keeping quiet at certain times of the day, eg where I live, you can only put bottles etc. in glass recycling bins on Mon-Sat between 8am and 1pm, and then 3pm and 7pm, never on a Sunday or public holiday; previous poster mentioned unspoken rule about no housework on Sunday (hoovering, lawn mowing = noise and consideration for neighbours; hanging out laundry = goes against traditional views against working on a Sunday) -- con: I feel like I can't do anything here on Sunday; pro: appreciation for home, family (if with you)/friends and nature
  

• Less emphasis on customer-focussed service than in US and UK, eg online groceries offer limited range of goods and interface far less sophisticated/intuitive/easy to navigate (even with autotranslate to reduce the language barrier); marketing far more 'bald' and less 'polished', eg opening my first bank account, the bank guy gave me a glossy brochure at me saying 'you should open a Gold Account, it's our best one' (ie highest monthly fee) and when I opted for the free, basic account he pointedly took away the brochure and said 'well you won't need this, I don't have many of them left' (when in US and UK the response might be 'of course, you keep the brochure and think about it some more, you can always tell me if you change your mind')... he then asked me to go on the bank customer website and give him a rating of 5/5 so his branch could win internal competition! -- con: argh, this question about my phone bill would be so easy to sort out in the UK / pro: feeling of being less surrounded by marketing ploys
  

• Groceries, even higher end ones, are less 'inspiring'; there is no true equivalent to M&S Food for example (note point on fewer packaged meals below); basic things like bread and milk are slightly cheaper than in the UK but things like quinoa, bulgur wheat and rice are slightly more expensive; I suppose this goes back to 'SAHM does the groceries and cooks' attitude and is less about tempting busy parents/professionals to buy nice-sounding food and fancy vanilla extract, although there is a lot of organic fruit and veg, more choice for less sugary cereal
  

1. A lot of things and attitudes feel like how they were 20 or 30 years ago
   

• Need to sign receipts when paying with credit/debit cards (btw, credit cards work differently here; they automatically deduct whole amount at end of the month; German word for debt is 'Schuld', which also translates to guilt)
  

• Debit cards not as widely accepted as in the UK; IKEA doesn't accept credit cards -- con: some inconvenience needing to have cash with you all the time; pro: you're less likely to impulse buy
  

• Fruits and veg more seasonal, eg in spring, small wooden stalls pop up selling white asparagus; in late spring/summer, they sell strawberries and cherries -- con: less variety even in supermarkets; pro: really good quality fruit and veg
  

• Far fewer packaged meals and pre-prepared food in groceries (if there are any, they aren't good quality or with sophisticated descriptions like in M&S etc.); local fruit & veg shops, butchers, fishmongers and farmers' markets much stronger than in UK -- con: argh, I'm a busy mum, this country seems to expect me to have time to cook everything from scratch; pro: generally food quality good for price, perhaps fewer food miles although note point about less inspiring groceries, which there are quite a few threads on)
  

• All shops and groceries closed on Sundays, although museums, family attractions and most restaurants/cafes are open; Germans are big on planning so they're used to it -- con: nowhere to turn to if you're the kind of person who runs out of supplies on a Sunday or are hosting a BBQ and need more food/drinks (here you can get around it by going to small supermarket in Frankfurt airport or in Boots-type shops in main train stations); pro: forced to do groceries on weekdays or Saturdays (groceries generally open till 10pm), your Sunday is free for being by yourself or with family/friends
  

• Mobile phone, internet contracts are long term, eg 2 years; be very sure about anything before signing
  

• Less exposure to black people, people from other cultures/religions, already mentioned by previous poster
  

• People generally wear forgettable clothing I noticed this coming back from short trips to London and Milan and not-as-relaxed attitudes about informal clothing than in say Los Angeles, London, Sydney; con: can't go to bars in flip-flops, office wear can be boring; pro: not as much pressure to buy fashionable clothes; fewer hipster beards
  

1. More expectation of independence from children; more expectation of mother to be SAHM or part-time worker
   

• Preschool and public school close at or around noon; on Fridays, nurseries can be closed or finish at noon -- con: more childcare cover (you or someone else) and planning required; pro: more time spent with kids; kids can be kids on afternoons, unmonitored by parents
  

• Less homework (not sure about this, as our DS school has a no-homework policy) and insistence on early reading/writing with school starting a year later than in UK
  

• Very young children, eg 4 or 5 years old, walking or taking public transport to school by themselves; children in general unsupervised, playing in street safe zones and playgrounds -- con: some difficulty adapting if you're used to UK/US-style parenting approach; pro: my observation is that children who are 8, 10, 14 years old are calmer, more mature, more respectful of adults
  

• In playground and forests, children here seem to run and play further from their parents; no one stops them climbing trees (in the UK lots of frantic cries to 'stay close! don't pick that up! keep quiet!' at short range); more relaxed attitudes about waving toy swords and guns around; in the city where we live, there is a Go Ape-type climbing forest where very little orientation/supervision is given
  

• If a child falls or is hurt/crying, school staff don't cuddle or spend as much time reassuring them as much; they may not tell parents what has happened at pickup time; bullying is shrugged off ('boys will be boys, I can't control what's happening in the playground')
  

• School gate unlocked for long periods at dropoff and pickup times, anyone (children or adults) can get in our out
  

• Children expected to play outside whatever the weather; nurseries/schools/the old lady down the road will require them to wear weather-appropriate clothing at all times (look up "matschhose" on Google)
  

1. Everything is specialised
   

• Specialist clothes for rain, winter, etc.
  

• Winter tyres
  

• As above, local fruit & veg shops, butchers, fishmongers and farmers' markets much stronger than in UK
  

1. Obviously there is a language barrier
   

• Working in an international company, everyone speaks/emails in English so this is less of an issue, but outside of work you need to navigate rental/internet/phone/insurance contracts; registration and red tape; opening times and other signs; groceries; school letters and announcements (unless international school)
  

• Although you can generally get by with Google translate, translation apps (tip: get Word Lens), pictures on packaging and basic language lessons, there will always be an invisible layer between you and the world -- con: I miss the total fluency of living in an English-speaking country where I can compare shampoos and all their features easily and decide on which one I want, I can go to an obscure sheep-shearing festival and expect to chat with locals and understand everything going on; pro: I feel less harrassed by advertising (It's Mother's Day Today! Buy Her Something Now!) and chummy Innocent-smoothie-type packaging text (which anyway isn't done here much)
  

• I've found Germans in my work and as well as market stall owners/shopkeepers/etc. to be warm, funny, helpful and friendly, but it's difficult to appreciate small nuances in German jokes
  

• Our 5-year-old DS, who takes time to adapt to any change, struggled very much with the all-German (as in staff didn't know any English) nursery he first went to; he's much happier now in a bilingual (English and German) school although you could argue he is picking up German slower than he would have otherwise; I think younger children will absorb language easier
  

• We have more difficulty than couples with one German-speaking partner and still tend to live in an English-language bubble (movies, UK news websites, Mumsnet, Facebook) which has both helped us feel less isolated but also hinders our ability to fully get into being German
  

Those are my thoughts for now, sorry for such a long post!

[unrealhousewife]

Pros of living in Germany are the geography, being able to go skiing or to drive to Italy or Croatia in the summer, the landscape and the food. The hot summers and cold winters.

[JewelFairies]

petitemom Your post is incredibly helpful, thank you. I will be returning (temporarily) to Germany this summer after living in the UK for 22 years and I couldn't feel more foreign if I tried....

[AphraBane]

Petitemom's post is absolutely excellent, but a few minor clarifications:

Most so-called Kreditkarten, as she mentioned, are automatically paid in full at the end of the month, but this makes them charge cards, I believe, not credit cards. However, we have a 'proper' credit card from one of the leading international CC companies which functions exactly like the British model, except that we never have to give in a PIN (even in the UK).

Life can be very different in large cities like Berlin. Here most mothers do work, some of them even full time . Most nurseries are open until 3pm or later (although almost none are open until 6) so it's easier to get at least part-time work. All schools in Berlin are now half-day schools, so DC are looked after until 1pm, and many are Ganztagsschulen, which go from 8am to 4pm every day. Many shops are open 6 days a week until 6.30 pm or 8pm, some even until midnight. Limited Sunday opening is permitted for 14 weeks each year. Berlin also is extremely multicultural, so you wouldn't have the same racist-through-ignorance attitude you get out in the boonies in small villages. And while we couldn't get away with mowing the lawn on Sunday, nobody cares if we hang out washing - that's regarded as a Swiss degree of neuroticism.

On the down side, Berliners have a quite startlingly laid-back attitude to dog shit on pavements. Actually, Berliners have a real thing about deliberately debunking a lot of the German stereotypes, but only half manage it - so they'll let their own dog shit on the pavement but then shout at you across the street for riding a bike with supposedly insufficient lighting.

[JewelFairies]

Aphra Agree with you on the dog mess. We will be living close to countryside and no one there picks up after their dog, neither on the pavements nor the country paths. The verges absolutely stink. But you wouldn't find a piece of litter anywhere, that's really frowned upon.