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Legal matters

Consumer rights - not fit for purpose on boiler?

20 replies

Stylelostinlabour · 17/11/2011 18:23

Hello

Gosh where to start... we have a vailiant eco plus boiler that was installed into a new build property in 2006. When we moved into the house the chief engineer had to come out and show us how to use the damn thing as it's so complex and has never really been right but it gave heat and water so not a problem.

2006 Engineer out to show how to work it
2006 Engineer out due to problem
2007 - Boiler fixed under warrant
July 2008 - Boiler not working called out engineer took out care plan
July 2008 - Boiler not working called out engineer
Nov 2008 - "
Nov 2009 - "
Jun 2010 - "
July 2010 - "
Nov 2011 - Boiler not working no error messages just no heat/water

Now the care plan was expensive at 80 a quarter so this got cancelled when it ran out this year and guess what the bloody thing isn't working again so went for the BG policy £99 then monthly payments on Tuesday, they came Wednesday ordered part, fitted part today and it still doesn't work so they say that don't know how to fix it so have cancelled the policy and not charged us.

We are now 48 hours without heating/water (3 small kids such fun....) me taking another day off work tomorrow as now have to get Vailant to come out to fix it at a cost of £199.00 at least.

No other local plumber will touch because it's so complex.

Do you think we have a claim against Vailiant in that it's unfit for purpose and I guess as the boiler gets older we are going to get more and more problems.

What would you do/say/write - I want to make sure tlhat I can at least get the £199 back and for them to either replace the boiler with something that actually works and is fit for purpose or will I be just wasting my time and energy.

Sorry for typos my fingers are sooooo cold...

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SoupDragon · 17/11/2011 18:25

I think you made a mistake not complaining earlier. Its been 5 years.

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Stylelostinlabour · 17/11/2011 18:38

I have complained every time they have come out and they said it's one of the best systems it won't happen again etc - but now I'm just sick of the fault/paying/complaint cycle and enough is enough

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PigletJohn · 17/11/2011 18:44

would be interesting to know, have you got the call-out engineers worksheets, which (ought to) say what the reported problem was, what was done to fix it, what parts (if any) were fitted?

this is not a legal comment, but Vaillant boilers are usually considered rather good, I wonder if it is the way it was installed that has made it complex?

Boilers usually have a temperature control on them, valves to turn the water and gas off, and a topping-up valve to repressurise if there is a leak.

With separate timer or programmer and room thermostat(s) and cylinder or megaflow stat if you have one (not even that if you have a combi).

So with only an on/off switch and a temperature knob on the boiler itself, I wonder what it is that they had to explain how to use? Underfloor heating? Solar panels? Heat pump?

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LIZS · 17/11/2011 18:45

I think it would be a bit late to reject the boiler as not fit for purpose , after all when it works it presumably heats your ch and water . Trading Standards might advise you but I'd write a letter(recorded delivery) to Vaillant asking them to send osmeoento assess it and put it right once and for all although it sounds like they are coming now anyway.

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pooka · 17/11/2011 18:51

Asked dh who has central heating firm.

He said really its been too long for you to have comeback.

He was surprised that it's been described as a complex boiler - they fit them all the time here.

He said a lot would depend on what the faults were I.e. boiler/gas supply/system. If system/gas supply then more likely to be issue with installer than with vaillant themselves. Ideally you would have contacted the installer I.e. the house builder when the problems started.

He says in terms of contracts, british gas are pretty good insofar as they ought not to come out with the line that the problem is too complex - their engineers should be able to fix anything.

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pooka · 17/11/2011 18:52

By tht - if is fixable, then they should be able to do it.

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PigletJohn · 17/11/2011 19:15

Sometimes BG will say "that (pipe or something) has been done wrong, we'll have to take it out and fit a new one, that will be £500 because it it a design or installation mistake, not a boiler fault"

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pooka · 17/11/2011 19:33

Can only go on what dh said - I know nothing!

But considering theyre the competition he was remarkably complimentary. :)

I suppose is possible that in some cases there s an installation fault which would generally not be covered by boiler contract. Dh's firm would generally do first visit to service and check the installation to make sure correct before taking on contract. But is small firm so reasonable to do this.

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PigletJohn · 17/11/2011 19:37

I'll be interested to hear what the worksheets say.

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Stylelostinlabour · 17/11/2011 22:29

Thank you all the advice it's complex in that it is controlled by an outside sensor and you have to set the "arch" what happens is you set your rad stats between 1-5 like normal set the boiler temp to say 20 then based on the outside temp it controls the room temp to a constant heat which to me is just like a normal ch system - it's this bloody outside sensor that apparently is "complex" meant to be super energy effi

What BG said to me today was and I quote "sorry love I've never seen one of these before it's beyond me - either get a new boiler or get valiant out" I have rung BG to raise a complaint that they say they repair any boiler but actually if it's a bit different they don't

I think the problem is it isn't giving any error messages just not sodding heat/water.

Think it's another complaint call to them in the am one a year I should at least get a bloody Christmas card each year!

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PigletJohn · 17/11/2011 22:36

ah, Weather Compensation.

If that's what's causing the trouble then either (1) take it off and throw it away, revert to normal timer and thermostat or (2) Get Vaillant to tell you if it is a standard part and wired in the standard way. If not, get it changed so it is, or revert to (1)

IMO if I have understood you correctly, it is not the boiler itself that is at fault. It might be the installer that did something odd. I have no axe to grind either way.

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Stylelostinlabour · 18/11/2011 07:36

Thank you that's what it called - they say it's installed correctly as that was a concern in the first year, strange thing is no heating for two days and wake up this morning to lovely warm house but not hot water.

I will get them revert to normal timer and themostat then that way if it does go wrong again then at least the local plumber would be able to look at it.

My mission today is to get through to someone at Vailiant and get it sorted for once and for all...

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Stylelostinlabour · 18/11/2011 07:37

I'll also get the worksheet information today for all the calls as well as I'm sure this is the same problem as in Jun 2010 and July 2010 when we had no hot water.

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Stylelostinlabour · 18/11/2011 09:01

OK here goes:

June 2008 - Replaced Pump Unit
July 2008 - External Fault wiring fault
Nov 2008 - replaced fan
Nov 2009 - replaced time clock
June 2010 - replaced parts due to no hot water
18 June 2010 - working OK
Sep 2010 - replaced parts due to no hot water
Nov 2011 - replaced Pump unit

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CarrotsAreNotTheOnlyVegetables · 18/11/2011 09:27

I'm not sure that British gas have the right to just give up and refund your service contract fee just because it is proving a bit complex to aort out. You have a contract with them, check your paperwork.

I have had some very complex expensive work done under my BG service contract which they have accepted the cost of as that is what my contract entitles me to.

They seem to have confirmed that the boliler was correctly installed and no-one else has done work on the boiler since you took out the service contract, so they can't wriggle out of it by blaming the problem on someone else's bad workmanship.

Don't let them just drop you because the work will be expenseive for them. You have a binding contract with them.

Their attitude is just like an insurance company deciding to refund the annual policy premium on a life insurance contract rather than paying out when the person dies just because it is "too expensive" for them!

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PigletJohn · 18/11/2011 11:07

well the fan is a boiler fault. Unless you live in a seaside or industrial area with sand, gritty dust or salt spray, I don't think there is any excuse.

Two new pumps is suspicious. I believe yours is a system boiler, pressurised, with no feed and expansion tank in the loft? With a hot-water cylinder or megaflow, not a combi? And it was a new build, not old radiators? In that case there should be no corrosion sediment building up and causing wear, the water should be clean, provided that a corrosion inbibitor was added when it was filled with water, and provided that it has not been leaking and topped up frequently. Sometimes clumsy installers get dirt and grit, including builders sand, in the pipes when they are working on a building site. This is all supposed to be flushed out at installation, but who knows... It is possible to add a filter if there is any detritus in the water. The Spirovent is very good.

"replaced parts" is too vague. If it was the heat exchanger (this is an expensive part), it can be because of quality of water. Presumably you have mains water supply, not a well or anything? Is the water unusually hard?

It will be interesting to hear what Vaillant say.

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Stylelostinlabour · 18/11/2011 15:30

Nope don't live at the seaside or industrial
Yes its a system boiler and just a hot water cylinder in airing cupboard
New rads the ones that don't get really how but pump out the heat - not sure what they are called?

Never really have to top up the pressure done it about twice

The house was the last one to be built so not a really dirty site and only 25 houses on the close.

BG just didn't want the hassle and apparently as it was a first call out they can cancel the contract.

Still waiting for the engineer to come and fix

Anything I can ask them PigletJohn that will help me - you sound rather clued up on boilers...

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PigletJohn · 18/11/2011 17:03

you can ask them why the Weather Compensation frightens people (they will probably say it only frightens people who are old and haven't kept up to date)

Ask why they think it needed two pump units. Ask them what were the other replaced parts, and why they think it has needed so any repairs. Ask if there is any sign of corrosion or detritus in the water, and, if so, why, and what to do about it. If they say it needs a £500 powerflush, ask them why, and do they guarantee that will solve the problem (the answer is no).

Ask them if, next time, you ought to buy a Viessmann which has a 5-year parts and labour guarantee, except on the stainless-steel heat exchanger, which has a ten-year guarantee, and has an integrated Weather Compensation option.

I have no axe to grind, I don't sell, install or repair them.

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Stylelostinlabour · 18/11/2011 17:15

thank you - I'm now pecking the engineers head about it - many parts later and still not workings, i have a feeling it's going to be a cold weekend

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Stylelostinlabour · 18/11/2011 18:29

Just to update you if you are interested:

New value
New ciruit board
New Pump
Recharged expansion vessel

He was in agreement that we shouldn't be paying for this call out really what with the massive history.

The only thing he did say was had we turned the large red dial in the airing cupboard down which we haven't ever touched but he said it could have been because of that but if it was turned down then it would have been BG yesterday

Have fired off email to complaints department and will await a response.

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