Incident on work night out

[ameliameerkat]

So we had our Christmas night out last night. And it was going well, usual fun and drunkenness. Until......boy A kissed girl A and boy B waded in and punched boy A. Boys A and B and girl A all work in the same team. Boy B then left the pub and Boy A followed him and may have retaliated at this point. This was all witnessed by the boss of the team. Turns out girl A and boy B have been seeing each other for a few months, which no-one in the team knew about. Boy B is a bit of a volatile character.

The police were called and spoke to them both separately and they were told to behave themselves, so from the police point of view there are no problems. But.....Monday morning is going to be interesting. We don't have HR staff in our office and I will be prodding the bosses to contact the right people in our head office to ask for advice. What can work do about it? Boy B was the one at fault. Can he be sacked? I think at least a couple of us are hoping he quits so no formal procedures have to be gone through.

Aargh. At least another member of staff who got very drunk (which meant I missed the kissing/punching as I was trying to manhandle her into a cab with another girl helping) won't be getting teased on Monday quite as much as she would have been otherwise.

Any legal opinions gratefully received!

[prh47bridge]

Your normal disciplinary process can be used in the same way as if this incident had happened during working hours.

[Suncottage]

Oh my God - you PUT this is legal?

Put it in chat - this is fascinating - our office parties are soooo boring.

No idea about the legal side.

Ermm - legally - all say sorry and go back to work on Monday.

[Dying to find out]

Sorry to sound a tad blase about it. [not sure what emoticom to use]

[WestVirginia]

How old are boys A and B and how old is Girl A?

[TheMonster]

Is it really something that could be dealt with at work if it happened out of work hours and not in the workplace?

[WestVirginia]

What happens at the office Christmas party should stay at the office party.

[Simbacatlives]

Interestingly my dh used to be a director of a well known company and every year the staff- mostly call centre had massive do. Big bust up one year-damage to night club , ambulances etc- they sacked a load- then had to reinstate due to legal technicalities around expectations and misconduct.

Now all tickets sold clearly state that whatever happens may be gross misconduct.

[Marlinspike]

You can treat what happens at social events as being part of work - but your employee could also use that in any tribunal to appeal against any decision. For example was there a free bar (which could be seen as encouraging drunken behaviour), is there a history of such fireworks at company events? Also could expectations of behaviour be relaxed at a social function? On the face of it dismissal may be a bit harsh, possibly a warning may be a proportionate outcome. it would sound very much like you have had issues with B and are hoping that this could be a way out for him

You need to be very careful, to investigate to make sure you get the full picture. Document everything, and try not to prejudge the outcome!

Keep us posted - like other poster have said, what an exciting Christmas do!

[prh47bridge]

Tired last night, hence the very brief reply! But yes, normal disciplinary processes apply, even though it happened out of work hours and not in the workplace. As others have indicated, that means you need to consider the whole incident and its context properly. You cannot just jump to the conclusion that Boy B is guilty and discipline him. You must consider whether the company contributed to the incident by the way it organised the party and/or communicated (or failed to communicate) expectations of people's behaviour. And if Boy A did retaliate your cannot simply discipline Boy B and ignore Boy A's actions.

[ameliameerkat]

Thanks for all the replies! I was 98% sure that normal disciplinary procedures would apply. It is known that boy B isn't particularly happy at work at the moment and he's made it known to a few people that he is looking for other opportunities. We'd had our drinks bought for us at lunch, but this happened a few hours later when we were buying our own drinks in the pub, and had been in the pub for 3 hours or so.

prh47bridge - if boy A was acting in self defence then it would be less bad, surely?

Suncottage - I think the other teams in the office will be all agog tomorrow, our team aren't going to be enjoying it so much!

WestVirginia - they're all early 30s.

Marlinspike - boy B can be very outspoken and not entirely helpful in the office at times. He can be difficult to manage and sometimes doesn't manage people as well as he could either.

Thankfully I won't have to get involved tomorrow as I didn't see anything happen, just had to deal with the aftermath. I'll let you know what happens......

[IAmReallyFabNow]

How does Boy B feel about his girl kissing Boy A?

[prh47bridge]

It would be less bad if boy A was acting in self defence but that doesn't fit your description. You say he followed boy B out of the pub and may have retaliated. That is not self defence. There may be some justification for a less serious outcome for boy A on the grounds that boy A started the violence but it still needs to be looked at and dealt with appropriately.

[prh47bridge]

I would also be prepared for boy B to claim that boy A knew about his relationship with the girl. And, if the girl wants to preserve her relationship with boy B, she may chime in with a claim of sexual harrassment against boy A. Indeed, the way you have written about the kiss suggests she may not have consented. This could get very messy. I look forward to hearing regular reports

[KenDoddsDadsDogEatsTinsel]

Sounds like you want boy B to be sacked?

[WestVirginia]

prh47bridge, I think you are going OTT to suggest "sexual harrassment" at a christmas office get together.

Least said, soonest mended.

[prh47bridge]

WestVirginia - You may think I am going OTT but a number of cases of sexual harassment at office parties have been upheld, as have complaints of sexual harassment related to gossip arising from office parties. If the girl in this case chooses to complain her employers will have to take it seriously and investigate. It might be nice to think that what happens at the office party should stay at the office party as you said earlier in this thread but the courts do not share that view. A number of employers who took your approach have discovered this to their cost.

[PinkElephantsOnParade]

If they are in their early 30s they are not boys!

[PinkElephantsOnParade]

West, prh isn't calling it sexual harassment, just pointing out that the girl (surely woman?) may complain that this is what happened and her complaint MUST be taken seriously.

[ameliameerkat]

Right! So, to update you. Man A and man B (updating terms to reflect ages, I didn't even thing when I wrote boy and girl what it implied!) have been asked to stay off work for a couple of days until someone from HR comes to deal with the situation. They're working from home.

Also, I spoke to someone who saw the whole thing. The inside incident was as described. Boy B then left the pub and was walked down the road by another guy to get him away. Man A also went outside and shouted after him (in a kind of 'what was that all about?!' kind of way). Man B then went back and laid into him again and had to be rugby tackled by the guy who had been walking him down the road to get him off Man A. So it sounds like Man A didn't retaliate at all and the only thing he did wrong was kiss a woman he thought was single (Man A apparently sent a text to the woman to apologise and she replied and said he/they had done nothing wrong, so I don't think she will claim anything against Man A).

What a palaver.

[PinkElephantsOnParade]

Man B sounds like he has serious issues.

Hope man A doesn't get disciplined as sounds as if he was entirely blameless.

[maxpower]

What was the woman doing - she sounds like the protagonist in all this. If Man B thought he was in a relationship with her, why was she kissing Man A? Although as far as I'd be concerned, if all this took place in a public place and the staff couldn't be indentified as working for a particular company, I don't see what it has to do with work.

[PinkElephantsOnParade]

max, the woman did not hit anyone so she did nothing wrong.

She may have been flirting with man A but that is not a disciplinary offence.

Man B decided to physically attack man A TWICE.

Or do you hold women responsible for men's violence?

This was at an official work do so legally counts as an incident in the workplace.

[maxpower]

'Or do you hold women responsible for men's violence?'



Any violence is unacceptable. What I'm saying is that she's hardly blameless in contributing to the situation.

[PinkElephantsOnParade]

So you DO hold her partly to blame for B's violence?

Then back atcha

[maxpower]

pink there's a vast difference between saying she was accountable for Man B hitting someone and saying she inflamed the situation. If she hadn't kissed Man A the situation wouldn't have occurred. However, that doesn't mean she can be held responsible for Man B's reaction.

Bottom line. Man B shouldn't have hit Man A. But I still don't see that it's anything to do with the employers. What I do in my own time is up to me. If Man B was parading around in a uniform that would identify him as an employee of the company or something, then I can understand them taking action against him as he could be bringing the company into disrepute. Surely this was most appropriate to be dealt with by the police (as it seems to have been at the time)

(this is probably why I don't go to any work events....)