buying woodland as investment?

[shelsco]

Hi. don't know if I'm posting in right topic here but not really sure what this comes under! DH has always had a dream of buying a wood. We don't have loads of spare cash (or any really!). Anyway, he has been trying to talk FIL into buying woods that he sees as he has more cash than us and quite likes the idea too. This morning FIL rang and said had seen a wood (24 acres) and would put 2 thirds of money up if we put up money for remaining third. DH reckons he's due a pay rise soon and could borrow the money (20K!) and pay it off with his rise. I'm not keen as his argument of going camping there with kids and getting loads of use out of it seems unrealistic to me. He also reckons its a great investment and we can't lose. If it is, then i would be a bit more open to the idea..Does anyone know anything about thist type of thing? how much maintenance do woodlands take? Is it time consuming etc etc. I'm fed up of being a kill joy every time DH mentions it (has been going on for years) but I can't see attraction!

[QueenOfFeckingEverything]

How is it an investment?

[HJisthinkingofanewname]

My dh wants woods too. He wants to keep pigs & smoke things in boxes hanging from the trees? Or something like that I don't always listen

[mumblechum1]

I think there's some sort of tax incentive to owning and managing forest land but I'm hazy on the details.

Have you Googled?

[HJisthinkingofanewname]

There are grants to maintain woodland and things like that.

[pepperrabbit]

Is he hoping one day it'll have planning permission?
Will it appreciate in value by more than the cost of the interest to service the debt?
Is it a "keep forever" or a "realise the value at retirement", sort of plan?
Or does he just like the nature aspect and a bit of green space to call his own?

[shelsco]

Yes I've googled but the info I've found seems to suggest that people who usually buy woodland have a yearning to be at one with nature and want a 'project'. That's not really us. i quite like a walk or a bike ride but i don't know the first thing about how to maintain forests etc! and we've got 4 dcs and we both work so devoting time would be hard.

There are grants and there would be for the one DH is looking at (about 2k annually i think so not really much compared to the loan he would be repaying).

Think he is hoping it would have planning permission one day but tbh if its been planted up with trees and is seen as a 'green project' by council, don't know if planning permission would be that likely! i saw the tax incentive thing but didn't look like it would make a huge difference to us. Just not sure about how much woodland is likely to go up in value and, more to the point, how easy it would be to sell.

Think the green space to call his own is definitely part of it. We have a garage full of (unused) cheese making stuff as a couple of years ago he had a dream of making (and selling!) cheese. Oh and we have quite a lot of vinegar wine there too, which was initially supposed to be something he may be able to sell.

He is talking of us spending summers in the woods, camping. Don't mind camping but don't know if I like it enough to spend 20k on it. Feel like I'm missing something as DH so keen but just can't see attraction. Was sort of hoping someone would say " yes, didn't you realise? Having a wood is great because..." Then I could stop thinking it is such a barmy idea!

[shelsco]

Queen, I called it an investment as DH trying to sell it to me as something to invest in. So instead of wasting a pile of money on something i don't really want, i am investing a pile of money in something that will give me a great big return in a few years!

[PrisonerOfWaugh]

Sadly I think most 'amenity woodlands' are rather overpriced for what they are these days, because it has become such a popular lifestyle option. Many, many woodlands are being parceled up and sold in small lots. I'm not sure you could really call it an investment. However if you want to use it as a family escape and recreation then then is more to it. How far away there are from you will be quite an important part of the decision I'd say.

I'll admit to having a woodland ourselves, and it does take quite a bit of maintenance - we have to keep fences, hedges, ditches and footpaths in good order. We spend most Sundays messing about there. The kids do enjoy it though, and there is a lot of educational value in the messing about and the camping, tree climbing etc. We also love having close contact with nature - watching weasels cavorting at dawn and seeing a tawny owl grow from egg to flight are particular events we cherish.

We haven't gone down the grant route, though we did look at some of the options. Mainly because the number of hoops required for us to fulfill the terms was too much - keeping management plans, deadlines, being inspected etc.

And finally planning permission is a pipe dream, in almost no circumstances would it be granted. Building a small shed for occasional use would be trouble enough.

[ohyouBadBadkitten]

I would adore my own woodland.

[shelsco]

Thanks prisoner. that's what I thought. The maintenance really does put me off as we have things on most weekends with the kids and i think we would struggle to find the time. Also, dh is not known for his love of manual work!

[lottiegb]

Yes, Prisoner has said it really. Woods do require active management, you can get grants through the Forestry Commission but only to cover work you are actually doing, that meets with their approval and there are serious application and monitoring processes - as there should be for public money.

Land has become expensive, including woods, partly pushed up because of such recreational interests. If he wants to keep pigs, make charcoal, cut firewood and manage the place for wildlife, he could get a lot of satisfaction out of that, as could you all from playing and camping but it will be a lot of continuous physical work.

Forget planning permission. If your DH wants to turn property speculator he needs to learn how the forward planning process works, what land is allocated for development, what is not and what the rules and guidance are pertaining to woodland - to simplify, they are on the whole 'build it somewhere else'.

[shelsco]

I thought so. He has this idea that you buy it then it just looks after itself! The trees are already planted and probably about 5 or 6 years old so i think he reckons the bulk of the work is done. Not knowing anything about the subject myself, i don't feel i have the facts to argue the best case but just felt that there would obviously be a lot of hard work. Think i'll get googling again and see if there is anyone i can find to ring who may then talk to dh and give him the facts!

[ohyouBadBadkitten]

forestry commision have some good info. Also worth talking to the small woods association who have some very knowledgeable people.

[EssentialFattyAcid]

this article suggests that it's a good investment if you run it commercially

[EssentialFattyAcid]

Do you have a wood burning stove at home?

[Takver]

Well, we have just planted 6 acres of coppice woodland (mostly short rotation) as an 'investment' but only in the sense that we hope it will provide us (and dd if she chooses to live round here) with firewood in our old age!

I think to make cash from woodland you need to be talking serious numbers of hectares and really know what you are doing, I'm afraid.

[mablemurple]

I don't know anything about owning/managing a wood, but my first concern would be access - is there a public road or footpath/bridleway leading up to it, or do you gain access over farmland or fields (i.e. with informal permission from the landowner, which could be withdrawn at any time)?

[EssentialFattyAcid]

IF its mainly for fun/camping would an acre be enough?

[lottiegb]

Well it's up to him to make his case isn't it. That means showing you his business plan if he really believes this is a financially viable / valuable proposition. There's no need for you to do his research for him. He is the quivering applicant, you are the bank manager / dragon he needs to persuade of the wisdom of investing yuor family funds.

[Xenia]

I don't think it will be a great investment. The first questino is whose money is it and who will be paying back the loan. If he's taking your money then he needs your consent.

I bought an island (very similar sort of things really, lots of woods on it, lovely, always wanted it). it's fun. I wouldn't say it's an investment. My money, my choice, my life. Hard to explain to people who don't want to own islands.

[lottiegb]

I would quite a like a woodland, or some fields I could restore to semi-natural wildlife habitat, or yes, an island would be lovely. I see that as something to do with money, if and when I have some spare. If I could generate some income to help pay for the management that would be great but that's all I would expect.

[lottiegb]

Just another couple of thoughts, to help with interpretation of his proposals, if he does come up with any. I have worked with woodland owners over the years, mostly farmers and conservation bodies.

Firstly, is it a commercial plantation, probably conifers in straight lines, or a woodland, with a mixture of mostly deciduous species? It's too small to be really commercial as a plantation and rows of conifers will be less fun as a camping location.

Secondly, if mixed deciduous, there are a number of activities that form part of good management that it is possible to get some return from, including cutting for firewood, providing wood for wood-chip heating systems, coppicing and making charcoal or coppice crafts (fence panels, baskets etc) and keeping pigs. Just be aware that while it possible to get madly enthusiasitc about these ideas, they do not offer big profit margins, their viability will depend upon existence of a local markets your DH can exploit and availability of a local contractors and artisans, unless he wants to do all the work himself. Even on farms, where farmers do sell firewood etc, they don't make much from it, it's usually more a way of getting something back for work they'd be doing anyway and viability varies a lot according to local markets.

If he just wants to let it all grow wild, not do any management and not claim any grants, that is possible but won't make as interesting or diverse a woodland as management would, at least for many, many decades.

[shelsco]

Thanks lottie. i do think that he should actually make his case now you've pointed that out! It shouldn't be up to me to prove its not a good idea financially! Thanks for the info. It's a woodland with a mixture of mostly deciduous species and was established in 2003 under a woodland grant scheme. As the grants are already in place, it sounds from what you say, that to keep them we would have to maintain it to a certain standard and meet certain criteria.

There is a river and sporting and gaming rights are included but I think anything like that could prove quite a lot of work for not really much return. There are local farmers markets nearby but to be honest we would not have the time to devote to it and wouldn't be able to afford to employ people. DH just wants to let it run wild and use it when we can to camp and for the kids to explore. Whilst i think this is a lovely idea, it is 24.93 acres, which sounds like a large plot to just leave.If it were a smaller amount of money, i might be more in favour but its money we can't really afford anyway so unless we could get a decent return from it or it was going to increase tremendously in value I can't see it being worthwhile.

Now I'm armed with a few more facts I'll wait to see what DH comes up with!

[shelsco]

There is a private road which would be owned by purchaser leading to land so I don't think access would be a problem.

I did put your point to dh essential but apparently very few small plots come up. I have no idea if thats true. Might have to go googling again!