If you have two children and your sister has tried (unsuccessfully) to conceive since 2001 (including failed IVF)

[bubbles11]

and your daughter is her god daughter (you asked her and she cautiously agreed) and your sister has given your daughter (her god daughter) many lovely gifts but rarely visits and you have never asked your sister to babysit - is it ok/insensitive of you to feel guilty that you cannot "reciprocate" the gift giving (i.e give back to her in kind because (i) she has no children (ii) she is in a far higher financial bracket to you now)

I have wound myself up in knots about being insenstive to her and our relationship is now failing on the communication front. Whatever I say to her feels wrong. What is the best thing for me to do? (i) make time for her in my life on a child free basis - i.e see her without my children and talk about non children things (I am very happy to do this!) or (ii) invite her to visit and see the children

I have offered her both on a non pushy basis but I fell nervous with both types of communication because I feel like I am getting it wrong. I couldnt tell her I was pregnant with my second baby till i was 8 months pregnant. Is the best thing to do to just leave it for a while (in terms of initiating contact with her)? Any advise on how I can sensitively communicate and try to have a relationship with her appreciated (even if the answer is "don't push it")

Thanks

[bubbles11]

i have decided to leave it now - we live in different cities about an hour away so I only contact her every couple of months - and she occasionally contacts me. But now I will leave it - i know she has a very busy life, it just feels sad we cannot be sister any more because i have had children. But maybe my focusing on that is making it worse so I going to give it a break now
Sorry if my posts have offended anyone.

[RandomMess]

Is it worth sending her a notecard telling her that you miss her and you'd love to spend some time with her on her terms and that you wish you knew how to better support her?

[bubbles11]

i would do this random like a shot if i thought it would not be wrong. i have tried both tactics in my first post and she has just not responded. anyway thanks for the suggestion

[RandomMess]

My only other thought is a specific invitation (without dc) for the 2 of you to meet up to have dinner or something. Harder for her to turn down without her responding to you in some way.

[MsMoppet]

This is probably totally out of order of me to say as I know this isn't what you're really asking but.... have you considered offering to be a surrogate for her?

I only say that because my (half) sister has always said that she would do that for me if I couldn't have children myself. Not sure how it ever came up and I don't know any reason why I shouldn't be able to. I just thought I'd suggest it as it sounds like you are in danger of losing a previously much loved sister

[ILikeToMoveItMoveIt]

Keep trying. Be very honest with her. Tell her you don't know how to approach her wrt your dc.

Lay your cards on the table in a really sensitive way and see what happens.

If she chooses not to engage then just keep trying and be there when she needs you.

There are probably many things she would like to say to you and many feelings that she has that she feels she cannot say to you for fear of upsetting you. Maybe removing herself is self preservation?

Good luck

[Mama1980]

I would maybe offer a specific date, arrange the cinema and a meal something? Explain how much you miss her. It is harder for her to refuse that privacy he very least get her talking a bit? I had something similar with my sister though not as extreme and for a while i just had to see her casually without children, thankfully she was able to conceive eventually and all is well.

[bubbles11]

In terms of surrogate she has not told me (and I would not ask) whether the issue is her or her husband. my mum thinks it is my brother-in-law but i have no proof and my sister has not told me this - if my sister asked me i would v seriously consider it
she talks alot about being "childfree" i feel it is a defense mechanism as she phoned me first (before our parents etc) about her last failed IVF
so i feel a bit like i want to meet her and engage with her on a non "child" level yet at the same time i am not sure whether that is insensitive
in conculstion i am not asking you out there to guess -it just makes me sad - it could be so different - if she said to me "it dont and never wanted children" or "we wanted children but we want you to back off for a few years is that ok?" or "we want more access to your children to babysit etc what is your problem"
i guess the unreasonbleness is me wanting her to say
i sent 2 emails to her in the last week, first being giving her my annual leave fortnight coming up and asking whether any dates suit for me to come to her childfree, second being a specific date when she could come to my house for lunch with another mutual much younger sibling when my children will be there - neither she has responded - i can honestly say both emails were short and straightforward. maybe i am being too much, if she does not take me up on either offer as it has gone on for a while i think i am doing something wrong and i should leave it - she knows the invite is out there. is this right?

[bubbles11]

by the way I apologise if I have come on the wrong thread for this and someone feels offended by my posts - please forgive me it is not intentional. my only justification for being here is that i dont want to be someone who presumes to know what to do or say - i don't know what to do or say, i have two children of 3 and 2 respectively but most of all for the purpose of this thread i would like to keep my sister as a sister. maybe that is her choice not mine - i dont know (we were occasionally close and then not in the history of time - i cannot work out how much is other factors like teenage rivalry and how much is the here and now) - anyway is it right to assume she should now decide how much interation she wants with me?

[singsong10]

Hi Bubbles.
I'm in a very similar place to your sister right now. And I'm not offended by your posts at all.
It sounds like you're worrying yourself into big knots over this and it's very touching. It made me cry.
I can't speak to my sister right now. I can't speak to or see any friends with kids actually, it is just so painful. It's not fair to them at all but I failed IVF only 2 months ago and I'm still dealing with a lot of anger and sorrow. It was my last hope after years of treatment and miscarriages.
So all I can say is: give your sister time and space to contact you when she can. Keep sending her the invites and messages so she doesn't feel even more lonely than she probably already does - this thing makes you feel so desperately alone. Don't take it too personally when the replies don't come whizzing back. She will appreciate that you are thinking of her.
Just let her know you are there for her.
Be assured she loves you and your kids and she wants you to be happy. Us infertile women don't hate people with kids, we just avoid you sometimes to protect our feelings.
I came across this blog list recently and it really helped me to explain my feelings to my mum, have a read:
worldofwinks.wordpress.com/things-i-wish-i-could-tell-people-about-grieving-infertility/
It's the worst thing that's ever happened to me, infertility. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Bear with your sister.

[bubbles11]

singsong10 - I cannot tell you how helpful your post is to me - it is so helpful. thank you - I am going to look at the link you sent which i am certain will really help me. Subject to what it says and after that I will try to not over think it too much but just ask to see her on her terms - i sent her an email the weekend before last giving her my annual leave dates and offering to come down to visit here any day in that couple of weeks which might suit her (if she is not away or already has plans) and a couple of days later another email saying if she wanted to come & join me and another sibling here at home for lunch with my two children on another day when I have already planned lunch i would love to see her (if she wanted to see the children) but that i would be v happy to travel to meet her at her home town. No reply to either email. I have not contacted her since but I will just leave it and try proposing a meet up again in a few months time. Your comments about not expecting a reply to come whizzing back really helped me - thank you

[singsong10]

Just take it gently Bubbles and don't expect too much yet. When you say in your first post that you feel like you can't be sisters anymore because you've had kids, it's actually the other way round - it's because she hasn't had kids that she finds the relationship difficult.
Trying to have a baby has been hell for me. And through most of it I made myself see my family and friends with their babies and kids. I grinned through gritted teeth as they gave me ttc advice I didn't need, threw old wives tales at me and told me to 'relax'. But they all meant well and I don't harbour hard feelings on that front. What was really hard was just watching everyone with their kids. Having the very thing I absolutely longed for with all my heart there in front of my eyes...look but don't touch.... I felt like a kid with my nose pressed up against a sweet shop window most of the time. It just got harder and harder to do. And now that I don't even have the hope of IVF anymore, well, I find I can't do the grinning and humouring of people. I hope it's not permanent but for now I have to put my own feelings above those of others. I'm staying away from kids while I figure this all out. I'm guessing this is where your sister is at...?
I liken it to someone trying to deal with a drink problem. You wouldn't expect them to hang out in pubs and bars while they sorted themselves out would you? For someone struggling with infertility the equivalent is family events, festivals, school fairs etc. And seeing my sister or my sister-in-law with my nieces is the very hardest thing because I look at the girls and know that my kids would look and be very similar too - and if I can love my nieces that much just by being their aunt, how would actually being their mum feel? I wish I could know and feel it. It must be amazing. Hard work but amazing.
Give your sister time and space. Tell her that you love her and you're all there if she needs you. Let her know you miss her. Just that.
Infertility changes a person. I am not the same woman that excitedly and naively threw away the pill, bought the pregnancy books and test kits and started making name lists. That was a long time ago and I am tired, confused, hurt and changed.
I hope this explains enough for you to see that the problem is not you. Your sister has a problem and she is dealing with it as best she can. Don't feel bad that you have kids. Feel bad that your sister doesn't and help her when you can.

[bubbles11]

singsong10 - thank you for your brave and honest post - it really helps me. I can see your pain in what you right. Sometimes my sister has been honest with me about what is happening but most of the time we talk about other things and I understand a bit more from your post now why. She very rarely sees my children and i never offer a meet up without offering it on an alternatives - firstly me coming to her alone (this is something i really enjoy and always want to do - spend time with another female adult outside family context talking about adult things) or a meeting at my house when my children will be there if she wants it. I never insist on the second and would be equally (if not more) happy with the first
There was a period of time about 2 years ago or so when we talked about trying to conceive and i talked about things i had done to help get pregnant - in some of those conversations she participated but then i sensed a wall and i have not in any way continued those conversations, never initiated the topic since etc. Especially not since about this time last year when she phoned me about her (what I think is their last) failed IVF - i sent her a (non baby related) gift as she said she couldnt tell my parents (long story, my mother hand lots of children and is clueless in many ways).
In terms of your points about not being sisters now I have had children - i guess you are right and i appreciate you redressing the balance in my mind. I guess it is just because my sister is sometimes quite withering and dismissive and i know then i talk too much at that moment about my children and i feel guilty. I do honestly ask her a lot about her because (amazingly and sincerely!!) I really want to know about her life/job/holidays etc but sometimes she blocks me on these topics too. But then every birthday and christmas she sends the most amazing and lovely presents for my children, especially my daughter (her grand daughter at my asking - now i feel guilty asking her) the most amazing spot on just what she loves type gifts. The worst thing is I said to my sister please dont buy them any more because "i cannot reciprocate" meaning (100% meaning) I cannot afford to buy you these things back although i would love to - and i think she has taken that all wrong. I absolutely have the money to travel to visit her coffee/lunch but not buy the type of things (for her my sister) which she has bought for my two children. Is this wrong and selfish of me to have said this and if she doesn't want to see me or my children in person how could i reciprocate these gifts. Anyway that last bit about gifts sounds very self obsessed and closed minded. Of course i dont know how painful it is but i regularly dream about her phoning me to say she is 3 months pregnant and me going crazy wild with happiness dancing round the house. I once had a dream she got pregnant and had a baby girl - i told her that - now i feel bad about telling her that too.
With reference to your comments about drink problem analogy - this is helpful to me - so is the best way to leave the invitations to meet and to just send a note (in a few months time) saying something general like if you ever want to meet up for an adult get together i would love to see you on your terms/to suit you - and just leave it at that.
I think your answer is already in your post "Give your sister time and space. Tell her that you love her and you're all there if she needs you. Let her know you miss her. Just that" - so thank you so so much for taking the time to post back to me singsong10 in a month or so i will write her a note along these lines. She has a busy life so if she does not reply immediately (or at all) i will just try again with another letter in another six months time or so. Thanks again for your posts

[bubbles11]

In the above post error - not "grand daughter" - should be "god daughter". sorry

[bubbles11]

also at the top of my last long post "write" instead of "right" (of course durrrr i type too fast) and the point about me reciprocating gifts is that i want to buy her things for her - clothes, books she likes, vouchers for shops she loves etc - - the point is that i am not mourning the fact that i cannot buy her baby things but that i cannot buy for her because we have such different financial situations.
it seems in my post i have been as clumsy as ever
anyway enough already from me
i wont post again but that you for responding to my post on this section

[albertswearengen]

Are you sure it is the fact you have children and she doesn't that gets in the way of an adult relationship? I have one sister and I have had to accept over the years that no matter how hard I've tried to create an adult relationship with her she either cannot or doesn't want to do it-there is still too much sibling rivalry there on her part. We live near each other and I see my dns a lot but I rarely see my sister and if I do it's because I make an effort.

In my case I was trying for a baby for 8 years before I had my ds and in that time my sister had 2 kids. She wasn't the least bit sensitive to anything I was going through - kept telling me how hard it was for her that she had kids, how older mothers were selfish to have kids later on (when I was 38), never once asked or enquired as to how I was getting on or how I was dealing with it, wouldn't let me look after the kids as I had none of my own so wouldn't know what to do.

You sound like a really lovely person but I would stop beating yourself up about your sister's infertility. It's not your fault and if your sister can't manage to have an adult relationship with you on your own minus the kids then let her go. You seem to make a lot of effort with her- stop now. It is bad manners not to reply to an invitation. You seem to be excusing her on the grounds she can't have a baby. Being infertile is soul destroying but it does not excuse rudeness.
You may have to accept family is more important to you than it is to her.

[bubbles11]

alberts
you might be right - there is a history of sibling rivalry between us on and off - we have never been soul mates but on and off we have had some closeness. Maybe it is me yearning after a sister relationship which wont be there irrespective of the children thing. I know I have made some gaffs (in the past certainly not recently) but i cannot tell how much i can rectify that now and how much it really is another form of selfishness on my side namely i am looking for a sister thing which was never there and wont be in the future.

Anyway if nothing else this thread has really helped me by making me see things from the other perspective so thank you for posting

[Mummyof3tobe]

Just came across this thread and I'm in tears reading it. Bubbles my heart goes out to you and your sister.

I have 2DCs and am pregnant with my third. My sister is struggling with infertility. I do have an idea of how she must be feeling as it took us 3 years to get pregnant with our first. But of course we are on the other side of that now. I am very close to my sister and she is very close to my two children. However since I got pregnant with #3 I've hardly seen her and nor have my children. We all miss her terribly. I do understand that she is doing this to protect herself. But I feel very sad about it. I wish I could help her or support her, but I'm not the right person for her at the moment. I desperately hope that time will resolve this. I feel sad for her that she is hurting and selfishly I feel sad for me as I miss my sister.

I wish I had an answer for you Bubbles, as then I'd have a clue what to do myself. I just couldn't read your posts and not respond.

Singsong your posts are very touching. Thank you for helping remind me of being on the other side of this equation. So sorry to hear that it hasn't worked out for you.