Mulitcultural England - good old Boris...

[Janh]

From the Telegraph yesterday:

[moozoboozo]

There he goes, promoting multicultural relations at such a critical time.

Tosser

[Janh]

Why?

[QueenOfQuotes]

so what about the practicisng jews - do they have to alter their way for worshipping too - even the (one) liberal synagogue (sp) I've visited half the service WASN'T in English

[Chandra]

I always thought he should have our Christian masses in good old Latin (Nah...)

[moozoboozo]

Oops, I have just re read the article, and I do agrre with most of what he said, its way past my bed time, and when I see the words Boris and Johnson together, I usually feel somthing bubbling up inside me, which is probably the curry I ate for tea.

Pleas feel free to ignore me. I am a knob

[moozoboozo]

I agree with his sentiment, but I think he puts it across rather narrow mindedly, hence my original misunderstanding. The reason why we have so much trouble IMHO is because of our ignorance towards others. I agree that everyone should be able to listen and understand Imams and I also think faith schools should be binned, but I dont think enforcing a narrow(er) curriculum in schools or making people speak in English at all times is the way to go about it.

[Chandra]

I believe that the least you can do for a country that has welcomed you is to learn the language. Having said that, I am also very grateful to those patient people who kindly try to decipher my failed efforts to speak (or write) their language in a correct form.

What I don't agree with is with the idea that by learning the new language you need to ditch the previous one. Language is a carrier of culture, you change the language and you change yourself, the jokes change, the manners are different, you are not exactly your old self when speaking a second language even when you speak it correctly and have done so for many years.

Having said that there are countries with multilingual societies that are more or less well integrated, BTW Britain is one of them, or should we ask the Welsh to forget about tehir language and only communicate in English? I don't think so.

[moozoboozo]

Hear hear Chandra. I was trying to say that, but not very eloquently!!!

[throckenholt]

I agree with what he says (at least in the paragraph below - haven't read the rest ) - BUT - there should never be a rule that tells people what language they speak at home, and we should also be all taught at school the history of the major ethnic groups in out society, with visits from the leaders of those communities to school as well.

His last comment about the number of people of "non-christian" faith who have died in the service of Britain.

As an atheist I think all faith schools are a problem - not saying faith should not be taught to those who want it - but it should be outside of school life - a personal and a private choice.

[TwinSetAndPearls]

Faith schools have little to do with the question of loyalty to our country or national safety.

I was eduacted in the Catholic education system, I have never felt the need to take up arms to defend the pope. I have felt no divisions in my loyalties. I have not been raised in a ghetto, well maybe a ghetto of children from families who wanted a good education - but that is another issue.

Most Islamic students are not at faith schools, the Islamic schools that exist ( and things may have changed so I stand to be corrected) are private and available to a few privelidged students, they are not stirring the anger of whole ghettoised communities.

The closest we get to Islamic faith schools which may feed the discontent within communties are school in areas of cities ( the one I taught at was in London) which have become ghettos of poverty. All the students do come from one community because the housing and living conditions are so poor the only people who live there are people who have to. These are not faith schools ( well actually that is not true this school in question was a C of E school but without a single Christian school but it still took seriously the job of supporting the student's faith - a sign that faith schools need not be institutions of ignornace and indoctrination) but community schools. Perhaps we need not get rid of faith schools but look to how our communites are built, the levels of education provided in inner city areas and the admissions poicies of our state schools which selct according to your mortgage.

[TwinSetAndPearls]

Interesting piece on this on the Today programme now.

[bran]

I have occasionally wondered why so many imams are recruited from outside the UK, it does seem to me that an imam from the UK would have a better understanding of the issues and attitudes of Muslims here (especially younger ones). I think it's fair enough hold services in Arabic though as the language is very closely liked to the religion.

[bran]

That should be "linked" not "liked", need a coffee.

[TwinSetAndPearls]

It is compllete nonsense to suggest that imams can't preach in Arabic, as others have said Cathlics attend Latin masses and Jews attend services held in hebrew, most faiths are linked to a language.

Surely there are people who are able to translate Arabic so we know what imams are preaching!

[peachskin]

Load of bollocks as usual from a twat writing in the Daily Torygraph.

There are many, many "British" people who are Republicans, i.e. don't approve of the Royal Family and would get rid of them if the opportunity arose. I am one of them.

You don't have to be an "Islamic wacko" not to like the Queen. I agree that the wacko he quotes from is probably a wacko, but in fact what he has quoted could have been said by a Hindu, a Jew, a Buddhist, etc living in the UK. The quote says:

"Even if I am British, I don't follow the values of the UK. I follow the Islamic values. I have no allegiance to the British Queen whatsoever, or to British society."

If you take out the "Islamic values" bit, this could have been said by any number of my expat friends living here in the UK. None of my British Italian or Brazilian friends pay homage to the Queen either. Are they wackos ? They speak their mother tongue at home, eat their own food, mix mainly with others from their own countryt, etc. They do all speak good English though !

I am getting sick and tired of reading such prejudiced carp about the Muslim community. When are people going to understand that the bombers are "brain-washed" disaffected youth and they they only represent a tiny minority of Muslims world-wide ?

The treatment of Muslim countries like Iraq is appalling. The invasion of Iraq was and is illegal. I don't care what Mr Bush and Blair have to say, it is an illegal war in terms International Law (and yes, I am a Lawyer) and International Law is the only thing that matters in the case of Iraq.

Muslim communities all over the world have a right to be angry. Bombs on buses and trains are not justified. However the concerns of Muslims with respect to their treatment at the hands of the USA, Britain, Israel, etc are justified and they have a RIGHT to voice those concerns no matter where they live.

[peachskin]

Load of bollocks as usual from a twat writing in the Daily Torygraph.

There are many, many "British" people who are Republicans, i.e. don't approve of the Royal Family and would get rid of them if the opportunity arose. I am one of them.

You don't have to be an "Islamic wacko" not to like the Queen. I agree that the wacko he quotes from is probably a wacko, but in fact what he has quoted could have been said by a Hindu, a Jew, a Buddhist, etc living in the UK. The quote says:

"Even if I am British, I don't follow the values of the UK. I follow the Islamic values. I have no allegiance to the British Queen whatsoever, or to British society."

If you take out the "Islamic values" bit, this could have been said by any number of my expat friends living here in the UK. None of my British Italian or Brazilian friends pay homage to the Queen either. Are they wackos ? They speak their mother tongue at home, eat their own food, mix mainly with others from their own countryt, etc. They do all speak good English though !

I am getting sick and tired of reading such prejudiced carp about the Muslim community. When are people going to understand that the bombers are "brain-washed" disaffected youth and they they only represent a tiny minority of Muslims world-wide ?

The treatment of Muslim countries like Iraq is appalling. The invasion of Iraq was and is illegal. I don't care what Mr Bush and Blair have to say, it is an illegal war in terms International Law (and yes, I am a Lawyer) and International Law is the only thing that matters in the case of Iraq.

Muslim communities all over the world have a right to be angry. Bombs on buses and trains are not justified. However the concerns of Muslims with respect to their treatment at the hands of the USA, Britain, Israel, etc are justified and they have a RIGHT to voice those concerns no matter where they live.

[peachskin]

Sorry, my computer went dead for a minute and I posted same message twice !

[dinny]

Faith schools promote tribalism. Look at Northern Ireland.

[sistermoon]

Take on board what you say Peach skin but in order for Britain to be truely multicultural more respect to British culture and history needs to be shown people should not be afraid of being patriotic it does not make you racist - Also teh Queen has no real power any more and is purely a figure head I am not a royalist but feel that culture and British values are sold out constantly by either right wing racist or left wing do gooders. Ultimately to be truly multicultural than all people who live or are born in Britain should have some form of alligance to this country whilst still continuing their own cultures and values - It is about finding a way of saying yes I am proud to be British but I am also X, y,z.

[TwinSetAndPearls]

Faith schools can promote tribalism, particularly if that tribalism already exists in the wider society as in the case you have quoted. However this need not be the case.

[sistermoon]

It is about finding something everyone can have in common and building on that then differences are not so hard to accept because there is a common point of reference

[Windermere]

I agree with him on some of the issues but I do tend to find it difficult to take anything that he says seriously. He is privledged upper class dimwit who could do with a serious haircut.

[peachskin]

sistermoon - I totally agree. But isn't that just a tad hypocritical of us "Brits" ??

Ever heard of the hoards of Brits living abroad (South of Spain, Turkey, Italy, etc ?) who NEVER bother to learn the native language of the country they live in, go to Brit-run pubs, who basically behave as though they are living in Bournemouth, not abroad ? Do they have "allegance" to the Spanish Royal family, the Italian or Turkish Govts, etc ? I very much doubt it.

Once a country allows immigrants and refugees in, it has to deal with all the issues, both negative and positive. Forcing immigrants to have allegiance to Queen and Country and teaching them about British history (how impressive is that - Britain managed to colonise 3/4 of the world at some stage in it's history, usually by military force, so not very impressive to an immigrant who comes from a former UK colonised country ?).

So what is the "term of reference" that none left-wing do-gooders like myself are suggesting ? I would be interested to hear it.

[peachskin]

Oh, I forgot ! In particular, what does any one suggest we do with "freedom of speech" ? Allow it to those born-and-bred English and not to immigrants ?

I agree that we should draw the line at "instigating" racism and hatred of other communities, but this is extremely difficult to monitor. We hear and read things written by those in the UK Govt. that one could easily interpret as instigating racism. Do we lock them up as well ?