Mother kills babe in hospital.....

[eidsvold]

some shocking news re: parents lately....

here

[tammybear]

oh my god, how can people do that? it makes me feel sick

[mieow]

OMG

[Chandra]

can't believe it, it's just horrible!

[Twinkie]

It is awful and horrible but imagine this woman to be at the end of her tether with no family to help and a baby that keeps her up half the night screaming with colic and throwing up everywhere having reflux, imagine she has ben beaten or left by her partner or just has serious serious PND??

I know it takes a lot to try and understand what she has done and I truly don't but that is the reason there is Infanticide recognised in the legal system and it is one of the few things that you cannot be handed down the death penalty on because even the law recognises that women do these kind of things sometimes not because they are inhumane monsters but because they aren't in control of thier emotions or actions.

[leglebegle]

So so sad.

[monkey]

twinkie, that's only until 1922 - before then you could be sentenced to death.

Over a million babies are year are killed after they're born - birth defects, poverty, gender (usually female).

How many millions are aborted?

I know it's shocking, mainly because it was done in a hospital, when the child was supposed to be under observation for it's protection, but while very sad, is a daily occurance.

[edam]

Very sad but this may not be the full story. There is lots of controversy about the use of covert video surveillance in cases of suspected child abuse - if you do a Google search, or look under health in BBC Online News, you'll see the guy who pioneered this in the UK, Professor David Southall, has been discredited and suspended from child protectoin work. Cameras can be misleading - it depends on the interpretation of the image, camera angles, etc. etc. etc.
Of course, it is always possible that sadly this parent did attack her child and that would be terrible.
But I wouldn't jump to conclusions - Australian judges have begun to realise that the evidence of medical experts in abuse cases is not always objective or as convincing as you might think. There's been a recent judgement to do with so-called Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy which demonstrated that Austrlian judges are thinking very clearly and logically about expert evidence and that (some) Australian doctors are just as keen to make cases 'fit' their pet theories as Southall/Meadows etc. are in this country.

[Caligula]

Looking at the report, it's not at all clear that the woman murdered the child. Edam is right about camera angles etc. - the only clear evidence is that the woman placed her hand over the child's mouth.

That could mean anything. On film, it could just mean that she was touching her baby on the mouth. I do that all the time when mine are asleep. (Or on the cheek.)

And given that they had previously ruled out deliberately caused illness, I'd be careful about immediately assuming her guilt. I'm very alarmed that when children die, the burden of proof seems to be shifted from the accuser to the accused.

[edam]

Hey Caligula, we do seem to be agreeing a lot at the moment! I posted a blushing thank you on the other thread, hope you saw it.

[LunarSea]

If your child was in hospital, and had previously needed to be resuscitated, and you wanted to check on their breathing, wouldn't you conceivably put your hand above (and even close to) their mouth to see if you could feel their breath? That could look awfully like putting your hand over their mouth to stop them breathing if it was on camera.

[KateandtheGirls]

Monkey, are you suggesting that this tragic story can be equated to abortion?

[popsycal]

I used to hover my hand above ds's mouth when he was little to check he was breathing. And I was just a paranoid mummy, not a parent whose child had stopped breathing before.....

[Caligula]

Come to think of it Monkey, are you sure about the infanticide thing? I'm pretty sure that Victorians recognised infanticide (killing a child under 1) as being different from murder, and it didn't carry the death sentence. They did know about PND, they just called it something different.

[monkey]

yes, I am Caligula. if you look at the end of this list

kateand the girls, I'm not saying this story can be equated to abortion, because this baby was 8 months old. Abortion is when a baby is killed before it is born

[KateandtheGirls]

In that case, I don't understand what point you were trying to make.

[monkey]

ever day many many babies & children are killed both before & after their birth

[KateandtheGirls]

I see. You were using this thread to make a pro-life statement.

Babies are killed...
Fetuses are aborted...

That's not the same, and I think it is unfair to use a topic like this horrendous tragedy to make your anti-abortion stance. I will say no more about it.

[Twiglett]

hear hear K&TG

(or should it be here here???)

[nutcracker]

Totally agree K&TG, I have had a termination, does that make me the same as this woman then ??? I think not.

[KateandtheGirls]

Even if you're pro-life (i.e. disagree with abortion and don't think it should be legal), this thread is not the place to make that point.

[willow2]

Nope, nutcracker, it does not.

Monkey, if you want to label people who have had abortions as murderers then might I kindly suggest that you go off and find another site on which to do it?

[fruitful]

Oh here we go... Lets all jump on someone for voicing an opinion that is different from our own. You appear to be quite determinedly starting an abortion debate here; if this thread is not the place for it then don't do it!

Personally I think that a baby's death is tragic whenever it occurs.

When I read that article I just thought, poor, poor woman - one baby dead and her other child taken away. She could so easily have been checking her baby's breathing but its more sensational to write the article as though she is a murderer and people just believe the headline.

[monkey]

I absolutely did no such thing. The word muderer never crossed my lips, nor did I write such a thing. You may hold different views to abortion than me, but all I said was that abortion killed unborn babies. While it may make some feel angry/uncomfortable whatever, it surely called be said to be untrue? But I did not say people who have had abortions are murderers.

What I said, and still stand by is that while this story is sad, many other babies die each day all over the world for a multitude of reasons. How sad & tragic is that.

As twinkie & others have said, this particular woman (who may or may not have killed her child, despite the media's trail & prosecution), may have had, and possibly/probably did have mental illness/pnd/other social problems (and lets face it, she must have known she & the baby were under observation). If someone gets killed it is always a tragedy but not always murder. I never used the word murderer.

[edam]

The newspaper made it very clear that they were reporting the police version of events - the headline says "police claim" and the details are clearly taken from the court proceedings. The story makes it very obvious that this case is at a very early stage and the poor woman has NOT been convicted.
You can't blame the media for reporting this case - in fact media coverage has done an awful lot to expose wrongdoing and miscarriages of justice. And when the media is prevented from reporting court cases, including the full trial, you end up with a whole series of miscarriages of justice, as in the Munchausen's cases in this country.
I imagine the rules in Australia are similar to this country, that if you report the prosecution case, you have to also report the defence case, when that is presented, and the verdict.
There's no 'media trial and prosecution' here.

Many people, including me, would disagree with your view that 'abortion kills unborn babies'. Abortion ends the potential life of a fetus, as does miscarriage. Actual life begins at birth, otherwise we'd all celebrate the date of our conception rather than our birthdays.

[harrassedmum]

It is very sad, but my mum used to come across cases like this working for the cps and there was often a serious reason such as severe depression or mental illness, so i couldnt judge her without knowing the full facts.