I despair at Israel sometimes

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AndHarry Tue 01-Jul-14 12:07:10

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

AndHarry Tue 01-Jul-14 12:19:42

Argh, phone!

...What happened to 3 schoolchildren was terrible and there are no excuses for it but the Israeli government's reaction is unjustified. How can they blow up two civilian houses because they believe that suspects - not arrested, charged, tried or found guilty - live there? Why have they already let the rhetoric rise so far towards war? How can they say that Hamas 'must pay a price' despite Hamas completely denying any involvement?

The situation in Israel is such a terrible tragedy. It was supposed to be a safe homeland for an oppressed people after the horrors of the second World War but the now it's the Palestinian Territories that are run like ghettos. I don't understand why the Israeli government is so belligerent about the illegal settlements or so cruel to ordinary Palestinians. It seems so stupid to keep reacting to provocation with crushing shows of strength: when has it ever worked?

In the meanwhile it's ordinary people who suffer and become posters for every bored, ignorant, unemployed would-be jihadist to flock to Al Qaeda and their like. Until there's a stable 2-state solution in Israel how can we hope to have peace in the Middle East?

In my view the Israeli government are fundamentalists and utterly irresponsible in their actions.

YANBU

It's all so pointlessly tragic.

AndHarry Tue 01-Jul-14 12:54:34

Not AIBU but thanks grin

I think the Israeli government does a great disservice to the Israeli people, as do the Israel lobby hawks in the US.

I know but you are still not BU grin

I often wonder what would have happened to the Middle East if Yitzhak Rabin had not been assassinated.

AndHarry Tue 01-Jul-14 15:27:20

grin

I think a lot of people wonder the same thing. A little less arrogant pride, a little more flexibility.

GoshAnneGorilla Tue 01-Jul-14 21:49:17

Six Palestinians dead and counting. The cycle continues.

Springheeled Tue 01-Jul-14 22:24:11

Quite agree op

Shakshuka Wed 02-Jul-14 02:37:26

Well, I'm no fan of the current Israeli government. Bibi is a populist and will do something because doing something will win him votes (IMO) and he's going to be under huge pressure from his support base - Likud activists and settlers - to do something so I agree with you on some points. Personally I think restraint is strength but I doubt he sees it that way!

However, it is very likely that Hamas was involved in some way. It's true that it is strange that Hamas have denied any involvement since the murderous bastards have always been proud of their atrocities before, the more civilians - especially kids - dead, the better. But even US intelligence is saying there's Hamas involvement. Possibly it was a cell operating independently.

Hamas do continue firing rockets into Israel - 18 rockets were fired today. It's not just about the murders.

Personally, i have no sympathy whatsoever for Hamas. They deserve whatever they get.

I doubt there will ever be a viable 2-state solution. It's gone past that. The Yasser Arafat and his legacy hand in glove with the Israeli right made sure of that one. It's going to have to be a one state solution or continuation of the status quo forever.

I totally reject the analogy of the Palestinian Territories with ghettos. That is unfair and unjust. For sure, there are abuses of human rights by Israel in the Palestinian Territories such as denial of freedom of movement. But to compare Ramallah to the Warsaw Ghetto? Seriously?

It also really annoys me when there is some expectation that Israel behave differently to other countries because of the holocaust and the Jews having been an oppressed people. If anything, it explains Israel's reactions rather than being so surprising. When the Arabs (plus Iran of course) talk of wiping Israel out, deny Israel's very existence, Israelis believe them. After all, it's not the first time someone has tried, and come close. - the holocaust is ingrained in the Israeli psyche, it was an enormous national trauma.

I never heard anyone denounce Rwanda's behaviour (a million times worse than what's happening in Israel but doesn't seem to count) to the Hutus in DRC because they should have known better having had a genocide themselves.

AndHarry Wed 02-Jul-14 07:39:51

Many people are appalled at Rwanda's terrible actions in DRC. I think it's outrageous that it has been so under-reported.

I would say that the Gaza strip is run like a ghetto, yes. Restriction of movement, under-supply of food, fuel and medicines, suppressal of peaceful protest, armed patrols, civilians shot by twitchy soldiers... Not to mention the disgusting all-out military assault during which a school was hit by illegal phosphorous bombs.

Quivering Wed 02-Jul-14 07:54:56

There are HR abuses by Israel to the Palestinians, absolutely. There are also disgusting unimaginable acts of terror by the Palestinians to the israelis that no one here cares to comment on until israel (often disproportionately) retaliates. Three school children were abducted and later shot on their way home from school. No one cared until Israel punished their families (unjustly IMO).

The UN ignores atrocities all over the world yet comments at every seasion on Israel. They have condemned israel more times than they have all the other countries in the world altogether. This includes Rwanda, Darfur, Syria, Iran, places where men are hung for being gay, women are sentenced to death for loving a christian, children are killed with machetes.

It is precisely this kind of singling out that creates the emotional response that inevitably ends in what jas euphamistically been referred to as shows of strength.

AndHarry Wed 02-Jul-14 10:27:53

Israel is censured so often by the UN because it was established under UN mandate and is therefore arguably the UN's problem. Other countries are also censured but consensus-building in the UN takes considerable time and effort, which is understandably concentrated on pursuing the interests of the big hitters on the Security Council. Of course that's not ideal and it would be great to be able to tackle everywhere at once but it's not feasible until more of the emerging powers are in a state to be able to diversify the priorities on the agenda.

The Israel-Palestine issue is a huge priority for the UN because it undermines efforts to build peace elsewhere and causes security issues not just in Western nations but throughout the world. Al Qaeda and other Islamic Fundamentalist attacks kill more non-Western Muslims than anyone else. As long as this conflict in Israel drags out and Israel keeps justfying human rights abuses, this threat will continue. If we could resolve it then one of the big complaints against the West would disappear overnight.

There's no point in this tit-for-tat 'Israel did this, Palestinanians did that'. This conflict is too important for that and it infuriates and disgusts me that leaders on both sides seem unable to rise above childish bickering. No the Palestinians should nto be firing rockets into Israel. No Israel should not be subjecting Palestinians to terrible human rights abuses and denying them a voice to put this right.

Shakshuka Wed 02-Jul-14 11:17:03

You should read a bit more about the ghettos as you're clearly lacking historical perspective.

And Israel is censured as often as it is at the UN because of the Arab lobby, not because of some collective guilt about the creation of Israel. Israel wasn't created by the UN

Shakshuka Wed 02-Jul-14 11:27:29

Agree Quivering.

I was listening to one UN session where the Syrian representative got up to condemn Israel. How people kept a straight face, I don't know.

It doesn't excuse Israel, human rights are non negotiable, but it is unfair.

And why isn't Egypt equally blamed for the creation of this apparent ghetto in Gaza? Why don't they open their border with Gaza to the Palestinians?

Quivering Wed 02-Jul-14 11:57:29

Andharry, are you blaming Israel for alqaeda? Please explain if I've misunderstood you.

To suggest that the UN 'have no time' to 'tackle other problems' is ludicrous.

The fundamental difference between the warsaw ghetto and gaza is that jews were restricted to the ghetto as a first step to killing them all in an organised fashion. Gazans face no such threat.

AndHarry Wed 02-Jul-14 12:55:02

Really? The bombing campaign to free one soldier was akin to shooting fish in a brrel. I saw no concern for collateral damage.

The only people to blame for Al Qaeda are Al Qaeda themselves. And possibly us and USA for backing and arming them against Russia in the Cold War. However it doesn't make sense to not address the issues that make them an attractive organisation to so many people in the Muslim world. One of those issues is the field of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that provides an unending supply of grounds for claims, whether justified or not, that the 'West', led by the Israel lobby in the USA, backs the suppression of the human rights of Muslims by having Israel as an ally.

The UN addresses a host of issues, however I can't think of many conflicts in the world that have been recipient of so much on-going attention at the highest levels of the Security Council members as the Israel-Palestine conflict. Suggesting that the UN spends as much time on gay rights in Sudan as resolving the Israel dispute is ridiculous.

These are all really good points raised. It's nice to have a good discussion about it with people who know their stuff!

donnie Wed 02-Jul-14 13:39:58

Quivering: the UN does not 'ignore atrocities all over the world" - don't be so blinkered.

Gaza IS a ghetto. It has been blockaded by Israel for years now and has chronic shortages of medicine, food and water. People are not allowed free passage in or out. That makes it pretty much a ghetto.

Bibi is dangerous. His brother was murdered by the PLO back in the raid on Entebbe so he cannot possibly be expected to have a balanced political perspective.

The abduction and murder of three teenagers is dreadful. Agreed. Noone is challenging that fact.

The sustained annexation and theft of Palestinian land, homes and farms as part of what Bibi describes as 'natural expansion' is also dreadful but Israel keeps on and on doing it - I wonder why? is it because they want to annihilate the Palestinian lands - and in doing so Palestinian society - permanently?

AndHarry agree with all you've said. Lots of long , long MN threads on this question from years ago too.

donnie Wed 02-Jul-14 13:43:26

The connection between Al Qa'eda and Israel is a great deal closer than you seem to realise Quivering. One of the principal tenets of Jihad is the liberation of Palestine. I'm surprised you don't know that.

Shakshuka Wed 02-Jul-14 15:06:19

It's disgusting to compare Gaza to a ghetto. What went on in the ghettos during the holocaust was beyond horrific and incomparable to anything that happens in Israel or Palestine.

Food and medicine are allowed in to the Gaza strip. That's just propaganda to say it's not. No one is starving on the streets of Gaza. Funny how it's only with regards to Israel that this holocaust terminology is used.

I'm not justifying what happens in Gaza, I think it's wrong - although I'm not sure what the solution is since no one actually wants Gaza - but it can be criticized on its own without having to cheapen the debate by trying to tie it in to the holocaust.

And why is Egypt never mentioned? Why can't they open the Rafah border to their Palestinians brothers and sisters?

AndHarry Wed 02-Jul-14 15:43:50

It is justifiable to link it to the Holocaust as the reverse argument is used as though past trauma somehow justifies Israel's actions. The horrors of the Holocaust cannot be used as a justifcation for Israel to perpetrate serial human rights abuses in the name of self-defence. To say that does not, I believe, in any way diminish the suffering of Jews under Nazi rule.

Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel, which was a courageous action that earned it the vitriol of the rest of the Arab world, including Palestinians. Since the Arab Spring, relations between Israel and Egypt have been fragile and I can see why Egypt doesn't want to destablise that by laying them open to claims of allowing weapons to be used against Israel and jihadist militants through the border they control. I'm not saying it's right but given the terrorist threat in the Sinai peninsular it would be seen as a soft target through which to strike Israel, thereby provoking more retaliation and making the situation even worse for Palestinian civilians.

Shakshuka Wed 02-Jul-14 16:01:08

The holocaust shouldn't be used as a justification either, that's true. It really has no place in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

However, the national trauma caused by the holocaust and how it has affected, and continues to affect, Israeli society can't be ignored. Sadly, Palestinians who have tried to empathize and understand have been vilified.
www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/13/palestinian-professor-resigns-students-auschwitz

That said, one of the most moving speeches on the holocaust was given by MK Ahmad Tibi, an Arab Israeli politician.
Just in case you're interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_aR9MkvnRk

donnie Wed 02-Jul-14 16:25:18

"I'm not sure what the solution is since no one actually wants Gaza".

Wow. Maybe they ought to just raze it to the ground then.....oh, wait....they do that already.

Maybe instead of Egypt 'opening their borders to their brothers and sisters', Israel could stop stealing their land.

Now there's a thought.

Haha at 'that's just propaganda'. You need to tell the BBC, Guardian, New Statesman, Amnesty Intl and Al Jazeera. And lots of others.

Shakshuka Wed 02-Jul-14 16:34:11

Israel isn't in Gaza - they haven't stolen any land in Gaza. Every last settlement was evacuated. Didn't stop them firing missiles into Israel.

I haven't seen any reputable news agency say that people are starving in Gaza. Please provide evidence. Food and medicine have always been allowed in. I'm not justifying the blockade but perhaps if Hamas would stop firing missiles into Israel to kill innocent civillians then Israel wouldn't be able to justify any blockade, there's a thought!!

Gaza hasn't been razed to the ground - you really need to learn to separate propaganda from fact but I think you're blinded by hatred for Israel, I remember your other posts.

Shakshuka Wed 02-Jul-14 16:47:21

I'm actually really interested to see if Donnie will come back with some evidence from BBC, CNN, Guardian - even Al Jazeera - or any reputable news source (sorry, Islamic Jihad doesn't count) showing that there is starvation in Gaza.

I know for a fact there's not as does anyone with a genuine interest in the situation.

I'm not saying it justifies what happens there, there's an awful housing shortage and severe poverty because of lack of employment, for example.

But everyone recognizes that there is no starvation - apart from people who don't want to recognize this fact for propaganda reasons.

donnie Wed 02-Jul-14 16:48:04

lol @ 'blinded' wink

Gaza is an arid hole. It is a refugee camp, pretty much. You are right that Israel doesn't want it. Weird that they control its borders though, as well as its air space. I wonder why.

'They haven't stolen any land in Gaza'. You'll agree that they are West Bank thieves though I am sure. Maybe that's 'propaganda' too?

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