Kiev

(164 Posts)
telsa Wed 19-Feb-14 08:25:40

Ok, can anyone explain what is happening in Kiev. I am sure the govt are monsters, but is it right that the extreme. Right ( Pravy Sektor) are majorly involved in the uprising. What are the demands.

DrinkFeckArseGirls Wed 19-Feb-14 21:55:14

I have no idea but too would like to find out.

I am in Kiev......it is chaos sad

itshardthinkingofanickname Thu 20-Feb-14 22:39:30

From what I understand - some people want to be in Europe with the EU, others want to be closer to Russia.

75 dead. sad Using AK47s.

But that's all I understand.

AngelaDaviesHair Thu 20-Feb-14 22:43:31

Political stalemate I think (between, very broadly, pro-EU people mainly of Ukrainian ethnicity and pro-Russia people mainly of Russian ethnicity. This fault line divides the country, including geographically). There have been long paralysing protests and the protesters had seen off police, riot police and special forces. So now the govt is using snipers to pick people off and retake the streets.

SantanaLopez Thu 20-Feb-14 22:56:29

Thinking of you Nessie.

The lack of reporting is really shocking.

HighBrows Thu 20-Feb-14 23:00:02

Nessie I hope you and yours keep safe. I was watching on channel 4 it's shocking what's happening and what does the international community do? Impose sanctions.

cashewfrenzy Thu 20-Feb-14 23:01:32

Nessie sad I hope you feel as safe as you can.

It is scary and I'm sure we're only hearing about some of what's going on.

claig Thu 20-Feb-14 23:20:51

As far as i understand it, Ukraine is in a very bad financial state and has been negotiating for a while about a partnership with the EU The EU offered them a deal but it wasn't a very good one - open up markets, "free trade" etc. Russia said it would increase oil prices of Ukraine did deal with EU. Russia offered a better deal, kept oil prices lower and offered a $15 billion bond deal. President accepted Russian deal.

People protesting about that and want governemnt to stand down now and hold elections. but governemnt says no because election is next year and protestors cannot force an elected government to stand down.

There is a far right party involved in the protest. It got about 10% in the last elections. Klitschko, the boxer, is leader of another party that got about 13% and then there is the other party that got about 25%. They are all protesting.

Some people are saying that this may become another Syria. hopefully not. But this is a geopolitical power struggle between EU/US and Russia over influence. Very dangerous because it is possibly the beginning of a coming clash with Russia. Russians claim that some of the protestors are supported by Merkel, EU etc.

Statement by Nigel Farage of UKIP

"Two weeks ago it was revealed that the EU and the US were manoeuvring to set up a new government in the Ukraine. This is unacceptable. This should be a matter solely for the Ukrainian people to decide themselves without foreign interference. The provocative speeches and intervention of European foreign ministers and people like John McCain in the Ukraine have also been very deeply unhelpful.

"Too many people have died already; the street violence from both sides should stop. There will be a presidential election in the Ukraine next February. Hold off on your bullets and your stones, and use your ballot paper instead. Democratic involvement and change is infinitely better than needless violence."

www.politicshome.com/uk/article/93232/nigel_farage_on_ukraine_use_your_ballot_paper_not_bullets_and_stones_to_exert_change.html

WestieMamma Thu 20-Feb-14 23:28:53

I thought it all really kicked off when the government rushed through draconian legislation taking away peoples rights to protest and oppose them. At that point it became a battle for democracy.

claig Thu 20-Feb-14 23:34:18

Government backed down and made compromises but that did not stop the violence. In the Orange Revolution of 2004-2005, half a million people were on the streets but there ws no violence.

There are some far right activists involved in this battle and there are political forces at work. Listen to Farage.

AnneEyhtMeyer Thu 20-Feb-14 23:39:33

There's some good information in this BBC article:

Why is Ukraine in Turmoil

claig Thu 20-Feb-14 23:45:23

"There is this tug of war, not only between Russian-speaking Eastern Ukraine and Western Ukraine but also between the European Union and Russia - both see this country's future as within their own sphere of influence ."

www.itv.com/news/update/2014-02-20/ukraine-is-a-tug-of-war-between-the-eu-and-russia/

claig Thu 20-Feb-14 23:50:38

'but is it right that the extreme. Right ( Pravy Sektor) are majorly involved in the uprising.'

I don't think that these extreme right are the majority, but they may possibly be some of the most violent ones. Whichever side wins, the extreme right ones will be ditched after victory, because the forces behind this are much bigger and more powerful than any extreme right party.

claig Thu 20-Feb-14 23:59:00

'In a surprising reversal after weeks of sitting on its hands, the European Union is swallowing its pride and mounting an aggressive new cash campaign to bring the Russian satellite into the western orbit.

This, despite a highly public snubbing by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, who recently reneged on an association agreement with the EU when Moscow came calling with a much-needed $15-billion dollar'

...

What we're seeing now, I think, is the beginning of a bidding war, quite frankly, between the Russians and the Europeans, for Ukraine's loyalties and Ukraine's future," said Hampson.

...

"This is about the kind of economic support that includes expertise, technical ability, resources that can be given, the role of institutions internationally, the role of the European Union, member states, other countries.

"So it is about how do you pull together an economic package that would provide for the clear economic needs of the country in the context of the economic reform."

It's a daunting challenge. But Ukraine is highly motivated to make it work. The country is facing bankruptcy and default on some key loans. And Russia is putting on the squeeze.

Yesterday, Putin's spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, publicly mused about the clause in its contract to provide natural gas to Ukraine, which allows it to demand billions in payments – up front. It's a bill Ukraine could not hope to pay.

But in attempting to manipulate the situation by withholding its own cash package at the same time as the Winter Olympics, Russia misjudged the moment, and has only itself to blame for creating a window of opportunity for the EU , said Hampson'

www.cbc.ca/news/russia-eu-in-bidding-war-for-ukraine-s-loyalty-rick-macinnes-rae-1.2526032

claig Fri 21-Feb-14 00:10:26

'At that point it became a battle for democracy.'

Elections are next year.

As Farage said

"There will be a presidential election in the Ukraine next February. Hold off on your bullets and your stones, and use your ballot paper instead. Democratic involvement and change is infinitely better than needless violence"

itshardthinkingofanickname Fri 21-Feb-14 08:47:19

Listen to Farage - something most people find hard to do.

It was a dispute about a trade deal which I think Russa thwarted. Draconian leglisation was brought in to deal with protests, deals were ignored and that's brought people out. The country seems massively divided and then they use guns on their own people.

It seems some sort of deal is being sorted.

Yes....Farage....the fountain of knowledge and wisdom on all things Ukrainian.....hmm

itshardthinkingofanickname Fri 21-Feb-14 08:57:09

Hope things get better Nessie

It seems some deal is being put together.

claig Fri 21-Feb-14 09:00:40

That's right. Just as Farage was against a strike on Syria when Cameron wanted it.

This Ukraine situation is very serious for every person living in Europe because it is the geopolitical battle of the EU versus Russia and the people of Europe and Russia will be the ones who will suffer.

This is more dangerous than Syria for the world. This is a power battle between elites.

Farage, yet again, is responsible just as he was over Syria.

WithRedWine Fri 21-Feb-14 09:07:55

I'm not saying Farage is wrong, but it's really hard to trust the judgement of a man who fills his own party with racists, misogynists, homophobes & xenophobes.

WidowWadman Fri 21-Feb-14 09:10:29

Thanks for the very informative BBC link, Anne.

I don't trust Farage further than I can throw him, and don't expect him to come up with an explanation which is neutral instead of biased by his own political agenda.

itshardthinkingofanickname Fri 21-Feb-14 09:12:05

I think most politicians understand the importance of Ukraine. It's not just Farage who has a unique insight.

And I totally agree that Farage is not someone whose judgement I would trust.

But this thread is about Kiev, not Farage.

claig Fri 21-Feb-14 09:15:39

Start taking an interest in EU politics and Europe because it will affect everyone of us. The EU is a giant and it wants to increase its sphere of influence. The Ukraine contains millions of Russian speaking people who feel more allegiance to Russia than to the EU. Kiev is the city where the Rus kings were crowned.

It is very dangerous. Politicians can solve the problems but they must be calm and understand what is at stake. This has similarities with the situation in Syria where external influence has wrecked the country.

claig Fri 21-Feb-14 09:18:07

Kiev is about Europe and EU/Russia relations and that is about the politics that affects each one of us. But OK if you prefer other politicians' responses to the dangers, that's fine.

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