Amanda Hutton found guilty of manslaughter

(348 Posts)
Rowlers Thu 03-Oct-13 17:12:53

Just that.
I find the photo of that poor little boy very distressing.

filee777 Sat 12-Oct-13 20:17:39

I can't see where in that link it mentioned anything about domestic violence.

passedgo Sat 12-Oct-13 19:53:29

I mean ensuring that people know how to take responsibility before they become parents. Time and time again in these abuse and neglect case, you find a violent man/vulnerable mother scenario. The services assume that the mother has a level of control over her life, more often than not they are controlled by someone else. These women need to be identified much earlier on and a much closer eye needs to be kept on them, with the authorities prepared to remove children much earlier.

This is the kind of thing I mean

'Unbelievably social services said I was intimidating the children by going around and asking for rent money.'

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2345197/Tenants-hell-evicted-sharing-filthy-home-children-14-mastiffs-running-7-000-rent-arrears.html#ixzz2hXEWqCEA

filee777 Sat 12-Oct-13 13:30:50

I agree with everything you say passedgo but not with your last sentence

it is exactly the mindset of 'nobody wants to be a crap parent, they just need support' that is causing immeasurable pain to children and in certin circumstances causing them to die horribly

passedgo Sat 12-Oct-13 13:13:49

There is a wall of silence in the sw sector. A lot of them keep their heads down, accept their pay and the status quo. They feel they can't escalate things to the next level. There is too much pressure all round. And now they have to have a degree which rules out all those with a natural talent that see it as a vocation.

Preventing family dysfunction has to be the answer. Nobody really wants to be a crap parent.

filee777 Wed 09-Oct-13 14:34:06

I question them every time

I question the constant discussion of 'families' and 'mothering' in child protection when there is very little focus on the actual child.

I question why we are still learning to assess the guardian when we all know that part of the issue with the major big cases of the last 10 years have been such a flitting around in an 'anti-discriminatory panic' that actually massive signs have been avoided and children have been tortured to death.

I'm not doing social work to be a passive social worker who doesn't make a difference. If that means changing legislation then that is what I will aim to do.

handcream Wed 09-Oct-13 10:43:30

filee - how shocking. I think you are right though. If someone else after Serious Case Reviews say 'lessons have been learnt' I will scream!

Parents even the most appalling ones are given chance after chance.

Someone earlier was mentioning that resources are an issue and if only they had more money. Rubbish! Peter and his mother were visited 60 times and still nothing was done. Its not the number of visits - its what you do when you get there that is important and if there are certain things you cannot do those need to be flagged and then the law should be changed. Otherwise we will see more and more of these cases

Tiredemma Wed 09-Oct-13 08:21:02

filee777- do you challenge these attitudes in your lectures?

filee777 Wed 09-Oct-13 07:14:26

I am currently doing a social work degree, I am only 3 weeks into it but i am already quite shocked by the 'shrug' aspect of the social work teachers and, sadly, other students.

'there is no point in serious case reviews, they are a waste of time we have already learnt the lessons we need to learn'

'parents will always kill their children, there is nothing we can do to stop it'

'when dealing with a child you are dealing with the person who has parental responsibility, the focus of care is on them and whether they are 'good enough' parents. Not on the child per say'

its a bit heartbreaking, I was sure that after Peter Connelly, Keanu Williams and a whole HOST of other children who have died, not just because of having sadistic parents but also because of the complete lack of action via social services who filed paper and did NOT intervene when awful abuse and neglect was so evident, that social services would change their methods to reflect that, but they haven't.

The fact is, that we could reduce that figure and change the world for a number of children who are being abused right now and everyone seems to go 'well, you can't save them all' and just leave it!

There has to be lessons we can learn, there has to be things we can do because children shouldnt just disappear for years and years and be totally unprotected by this society, I dont buy that we have enough money to bomb Libya but not enough money to provide support for our own communities.

I didnt choose social work to passively accept that the system was perfect. I am really so sad that so many do.

passedgo Wed 09-Oct-13 02:21:15

And the weekly deaths are only those that the courr believe that the parents were to blame. How many lives are lost but misinterpreted as 'accidents'.

A dozen serious case reviews is also a shocking figure.

And yes, where do the fathers disappear to while these women are neglecting their offspring?

filee777 Tue 08-Oct-13 14:24:39

A child dies every week in the uk at the hands of an adult.

If they reported all of them, they would stop being news.

PeaceBeWithYou Tue 08-Oct-13 13:17:12

With regards to the East London case, I read that the children were 3, 1 and the 4 month old girl (who the mother apparently 'caused the death' of). The 3 charges of neglect include the 4 month old.

So this woman could have had a child at 15, another at 16/17 and then the last one at 17/18. Makes you wonder what support she had/where was the father/s AGAIN sad.

handcream Tue 08-Oct-13 11:29:37

Elfhame - its here

http://news.sky.com/story/1150968/baby-girls-death-woman-to-appear-in-court

Pretty horrible but interesting that it doesnt get the coverage of the Hutton case.

Is it so common that these sorts of stories just get reported briefly and then disappear?

Elfhame Tue 08-Oct-13 11:24:15

Where is that story from handcream?

handcream Tue 08-Oct-13 11:01:59

child = children. Sorry, typing too quickly...

handcream Tue 08-Oct-13 10:59:40

We are going around in circles on this one. A child is dead at the hands of their mother. There is another case in East London where a 18 year old has been accused of the murder of a FOUR month old and neglect of 3 other child. Please God let them not all be her's (but I think they are)

What on earth is happening to our society. Why is is Ok for a young girl to have so many child and not an eyelid is battered. Maybe it is so common now and we arent allowed to judge so consequently it is seen as normal...

GoshAnneGorilla Tue 08-Oct-13 09:18:01

The condition of Hamzah's body may have made obtaining a murder conviction difficult, due to its deteriorated state.

Serious Case Reviews take place regardless of whether the death was murder or manslaughter.

Pinkpinot Tue 08-Oct-13 09:14:21

Sorry, she murdered that child. I know she's been convicted of manslaughter, but she murdered that child as if she put her own hands round his neck
Sounds like she had a sorry life, and that's sad and shouldn't be allowed to happen
But what she did is unforgivable

HoleyGhost Tue 08-Oct-13 08:55:49

Amanda Hutton neglected her children, causing one of them to die. Nobody has questioned that she was responsible.

However, in most cases, if a parent has a breakdown and stops coping, someone else will intervene. It is worth considering how AH came to be in a situation where nobody did.

She had PND, her mother had just died from cancer, she suffered DV, was an alcoholic, was a single parent to 8 children including Hamzah and his twin.

wannaBe Tue 08-Oct-13 00:46:10

but people are shifting the blame from ah and excusing what she did. it's ss/the police/the father who are to blame. Amanda hutton was a victim/mentally ill/abused/an alcoholic etc etc.

the plight of these children should have been picked up earlier - of course it should, and hopefully the SCR will determine that.

But Amanda Hutton was an accomplished lier and manipulator who was able to evade the authorities for a considerable length of time. She knew what she had done was wrong. she threatened to kill the other children if the eldest one spoke out. This isn't a woman who was not in control of her actions - she knew exactly what she was doing.

She has not been given a lenient sentence on the basis of her victim status - she has been given fifteen years.

The failure of the safeguarding systems need to be called into question, but there will always be cases that slip through - for whatever reason. And no, making hv visits and giving SW free access to your house whenever and however they want is not the answer.

I am not absolving the the safeguarding systems of any responsibility but nor should excuses be laid at Amanda Hutton's door.

And it is only not murder because it wasn't a specific act e.g. a head injury which caused his death - such as in the case of Daniel pelka.

passedgo Mon 07-Oct-13 23:40:31

Actually they haven't been able determine whether starvation was the cod.

If Amanda Hutton was solely responsible for this boys death there wouldn't be a serious case review, it would be a straight murder case.

What happened was a myriad of services running around and nobody getting a grip of the situation. Meanwhile a woman is left clinically depressed, alcoholic, abused and expected to look after 8 children on her own. The odds were stacked against all of them, this situation needed a miracle to avoid a tragedy happening.

kotinka Mon 07-Oct-13 23:28:47

thank you duchesse!

duchesse Mon 07-Oct-13 23:21:54

Firstly, she is NOT a "murderer". She has been found guilty of manslaughter, which requires altogether a different level of intent.

Yes, she was a shit mother.

Yes, she starved her child to death.

BUT

the systems that we have in place exist precisely because shit parents exist. The very systems that ought to have helped this child did not. And we need to know why. Especially since several children have died as a result of falling through the nets in Birmingham in recent years. Why Birmingham rather than Manchester or Gateshead? Well, that's what needs to be established.

kotinka Mon 07-Oct-13 23:20:43

This argument is so tedious to have to repeat again.

Yes, Amanda Hutton is completely responsible for her choices, cruel, negligent, selfish, an inept parent. This is so fucking obvious it doesn't need saying.

What does need saying and I've already said it downthread if you were bothered to read the thread instead of chucking in a mouthy twopennorth, is that this situation is not JUST about the failure of a parent.

wannaBe Mon 07-Oct-13 23:05:42

But the buck stopped with her.

Did social services starve that child to death? no.

Did they fail to spot that there was an issue? yes certainly, but when they were denied access to the house they were powerless. And there was no indication that things were that bad.

Did the police hide a dead body in that woman's bedroom for two years? no.

Did they fail to act on the allegations of the father that something was amiss? yes, but again, the father had a record of abuse, a restraining order against him, and therefore a potential reason too make malicious allegations.

Did the neighbours, ss, the school, the police feed AH alcohol and leave the house in that state? no.

The only person responsible for that child's death is Amanda Hutton. The only person responsible for those children living in that state is Amanda Hutton. Others did not spot that there were issues but they did not kill that child - she did.

kotinka Mon 07-Oct-13 23:01:00

I'm not saying Amanda Hutton is absolved of anything (see down thread).

But there were others that had responsibilities in this situation, and they appear to be being absolved of their negligence by wannabe and others.

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