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The Same Sex/Equal Marriage Bill. There is no rational argument against it, is there?

45 replies

Hobbitation · 05/02/2013 17:33

MPs are debating the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill with a vote at 7pm.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21325702

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KatieScarlett2833 · 05/02/2013 17:34

No, none whatsoever.

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KatieScarlett2833 · 05/02/2013 17:34

No, none whatsoever.

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WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes · 05/02/2013 17:37

No, as someone said on the radio today, what possible harm can it do?

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Tortington · 05/02/2013 17:37

no, i can't think of one.

i really can't

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Trills · 05/02/2013 17:38

No rational argument if you and I agree on our basic assumptions.

But some other people are starting from a different set of assumptions which, if they were correct, could lead to a different conclusion.

It's not necessarily about being rational or irrational, it's about the set of beliefs that you start from.

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Hobbitation · 05/02/2013 17:44

I don't count the faith reasons as rational. Whereas fact - being gay is legal, and that discrimination on the basis of sexuality is illegal, can only lead to the conclusion than marriage must be available to same sex couples.

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StickEmUp · 05/02/2013 18:36

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TiggyD · 05/02/2013 19:39

400 yes! Good won!!! Yippeee! Grin

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JakeBullet · 05/02/2013 19:40

Grin

Good news

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perceptionreality · 05/02/2013 22:08

I'm so glad this was supported.

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Matsikula · 05/02/2013 22:52

Sarah Teather apparently voted against it - what kind of Lib Dem is she?

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GrowSomeCress · 05/02/2013 23:00

A Catholic one by the sounds of it

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Matsikula · 05/02/2013 23:02

Hmm, have read her website on it - she says she sees it as the state entering personal and family relationships without any purpose as there are no significant legal differences to a civil partnership. But then surely it would be more logical to argue instead for the state to withdraw from marriage altogether and leave marriage as a religious rite.

I know the vote doesn't offer that choice, but why not abstain?

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ProphetOfDoom · 05/02/2013 23:11

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somebloke123 · 06/02/2013 10:26

I think one argument against it might be that the state should not be in the marriage business at all.

Any pair of people, heterosexual, homosexual, or indeed a couple of friends or siblings who have decided to live together in a non-sexual partnership, should be able to register with the state as civil partners and have equal rights but the state has no business asking about their sex life.

Anything else should be left to private conscience, churches or whatever.

What you call "marriage" is really a matter of language and not something to be legislated for. The meaning of a word (in English anyway as we have no equivalent of the French Academy) is defined by common usage, not by statute. When we elect our MPs we do not delegate to them custodianship of the English Dictionary.

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tiggytape · 06/02/2013 11:52

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Trills · 06/02/2013 11:57

That's what I meant.

You start from different assumptions, progress in a perfectly logical manner, and arrive at different conclusions.

Because your starting point was different.

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IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou · 06/02/2013 12:09

Polls have shown that Catholics are at least as much in favour of marriage equality as non Catholics. We are not all bigoted, nor or we all heterosexual. I am referring to independent polls rather than the massively biased ones with hugely leading questions, and to the laity rather than the clergy. I thought Margot James was rather marvellous on the issue. There were number of openly Christian MPs who stood up in the house to ay they were voting in favour

I think the problem with the faith arguement is the insistence that people can simply say 'due to my faith' or 'because of religious reasons' and have it mean something. It is a basis for a reason but not a reason in itself. There is a false insistence within the church that the teachings and interpretations of the text are 'constant and unchanging' whereas in reality the only thing that is constant and unchanging is the constant gradual changes. I haven't head a single faith based objection that stands up to any sort of scrutiny. I am in favour of religious freedom but this bill, with Maria Millers 'quadruple lock' does accommodate religious groups who don't want to opt in.

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tiggytape · 06/02/2013 12:24

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tribpot · 06/02/2013 12:40

I have to say, I'm confused by the ban on gay marriages in CofE and CoW churches. Shouldn't this be left to the individual church or diocese to decide? Is there discretion already for marrying (or not) divorced people and non-believers?

I don't think there should be an imposition of marriages that are felt to be incompatible with the beliefs of the church upon said church but why ban it?

I think there is a real problem of language here. I have friends who sincerely believe that marriage is a Christian institution and so should be performed in accordance with its statutes. I understand the point of view, without sharing it, and I can even understand that the fact the head of state is also the governor of the CofE suggests that our laws should be broadly compatible with the Christian faith as well.

However, what is being legislated for is civil marriage. The concept of marriage predates Christianity, is common to all religions and has essentially always been a civil concept about property. I think there is an argument to say civil marriage and religious marriage are two concepts which have less in common than perhaps the vocabulary suggests.

Another test may present itself when polyamorous groups ask why they also cannot enjoy the rights - and rites - of marriage. I think we may find that the difference between two and three is far harder to accommodate (on a practical, not emotional) level than man-man and woman-woman.

Personally I still don't understand how people can argue that their faith prohibits this, based on a literal reading of some words in the Bible, whilst rejecting the need to literally interpret others. Leaving aside the question of whether faith itself is logical, this is not a logical argument.

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zoez · 06/02/2013 12:56

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TheFallenNinja · 06/02/2013 12:59

No, although I fear years of litigation while the inevitable loopholes get challenged.

I'd rather a law that just said anyone can marry anyone.

I suspect it's the venues that will cause the next raft of argument.

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HoratiaWinwood · 06/02/2013 13:01

A friend has commented that "humanity must prevail over etymology" which I think is spot on.

Marriage has fundamentally legally changed in the past 100 years - hey, in the last thirty years - so rejecting wake-sex marriage on the grounds of history is illogical.

DH is relatively homophobic - that is, he has that "I don't care what you do in private but I don't want to see it and I am afraid of other men's willies and I'd be disappointed if my sons turn out to be gay" homo-ickiness rather than tubthumping, mouth-foaming hatred that we have seen displayed recently.

But even he can't see a rational argument against same-sex marriage.

I was relatively uninterested in the debate until I realised how frothy and illogical the antis are, and how calm and reasoned the pros are. So I have to be pro, because they have actually put cogent arguments forward.

My MP voted against. I am disappointed. I shall write and tell him so, and see how he responds.

YouGov say that two thirds of the country, and four fifths of those under 50, ie those born since homosexuality was legalised, are in favour of gay marriage. It has to go ahead. It just has to.

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HoratiaWinwood · 06/02/2013 13:02

wake-sex marriage - same-sex marriage

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tiggytape · 06/02/2013 13:39

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