Grandparents and home education-what do you do when they just don't get it, but you actually rather like them and want them to?

[Fillyjonk]

PILs just do not understand what we are doing. They don't see the value at all of autonomous education.

I have tried all the obvious stuff

Basically, they like to see results. ATM, they feel that we really should be doing worksheets etc-but more than that, they seem to feel that even making stuff using paper would be better than them spending a few hours playing little house on the prairie.

They also seem to have great problems getting their heads around the fact that there are certain things kids seems to do in school that we just don't. Quite trivial stuff, like there is a lot of consternation over my kids not doing junk modelling or making cards using foam. They do do am awful lot of crafts, just that because I went to a steiner kindergarten myself, we do more knitting, sewing, weaving, flower pressed cards etc (god that all sounds so petty and silly writing it down but thats what I was cornered over last night).

It is not even so much that they disaprove, though tbh they do. But they are trying, and so am I. It is that they honestly seem not to understand. They seem honestly to equate learning with being taught (honestly, with my kids, just because I-or ANYONE-teaches them there is absolutely no guarentee that it is going in).

They also seem to feel that kids need to be "occupied" quite a lot doing something, even if that is something that, tbh, seems pretty much like busywork. Whereas I feel that kids do need quite a lot of downtime to process stuff and decide what they need to know next.

I know I could just say "you know what, they are our kids so bog off" but I don't want to do that. I want them to feel included and involved, for their sakes, but I just don't know why they can't seem to understand at ALL what we are doing, or that there could even be a remote possibility that it could work.

I am also quite happy to be flexible. They keep trying to get ds to do faintly disguised worksheets, numeracy activities, sound words out for them, etc. Ds doesn't mind doing this stuff and so I don't say anything-though I am strongly of the autonomous stance, I don't think a few worksheets every few weeks are actually going to kill his love of learning.

The odd thing is as well that for our chidlren this approach seems to work rather well, certainly in terms of reading and numeracy and general knowledge.

I suppose I am trying to work out what their problem actually IS, and why they utterly, utterly can't get what we are doing.

This hasn't bee sprung on them at all, they knew that we planned to HE since ds was born 5 years ago. We've offered them carefully screened books (including Alan Thomas' latest!). They are retired teachers, and guardianistas, and not daft at all.

FWIW my style is pretty autonomous, though with a lot of "strewing". In a few cases, where they make a decision that they really want to do something, I will do what I can to keep them on target for that, but this is in a very consensual way, IYKWIM.

I am sorry this is a looong ramble, my thoughts are a bit all over the place. And it might be a bit full of jargon. Oh I don't know. Just any thoughts, really. I do value them a lot as people and grandparents and I really, more than anything, don't want them to feel left out. We are not on the brink of WW3 chex Filly but I would really like to just bridge this gap a little.

[needmorecoffee]

Ignore them. My PIL (ex teachers) both bitched about HE for years and how I was failing the kids. When the 3 older ones all passed entrance exams at 13 to posh schools they tried to take the credit and suggested we'd been secretly hot-housing.
16 yo dd now lives with them and lectures me on how useless HE is and how HE kids who are her friends don't know the basics. In-laws words coming out of her mouth (she's a bit easily influenced)
Ex-teachers are the hardest to win over I reckon, especially if they are academic snobs (FIL once said that people without degrees aren't worth talking too)

[Fillyjonk]

thank nmc

god how upsetting for you with your 16 yo. I think I might need to resort to a scythe or similar in that situation

They're actually ok though. Its not upsetting me, really, more perplexing me. They say they want to understand but seem utterly incapable of imagining how we can sucessfully HE when we don't have colour coded trays for our stationary. In other words-they can't get their heads around how learning could happen for a 5 yo unless we are providing an environment that looks EXACTLY the same as an infant school.

I don't feel any need to win them round, except that they keep saying that they are trying to understand and I am feeling I have exhausted all possible explainations.

[needmorecoffee]

then perhaps they are so fixed in their mindset they will never understand?
Get on with what you do.
My MIL used to make pointed comments like 'so, which cupboard do you put the workbooks in?' when she knew darn well we never used workbooks and 'don't you find clipboards expensive/' No, why would we use them?

[Fillyjonk]

oh I do, I do

the thing is, I am pretty sure that they are NOT being pointed. I think they genuinely can't get their heads around what we are doing.

WE've been through some tricky times where they were being exceptionally arsey about the whole HE thing but they now honestly seem to be trying to understand.

And I like them and they love the kids.

It doesn't affect what I do day to day. I suppose its that, after a rather crappy time of it about HE, they seem to be reaching out and trying to build bridges, and so are we but it is honeslty as though we are speaking in different languages.

I am thinking it may be hopeless but I do hope it isn't. They are nice people.

[needmorecoffee]

have they read any books on HE?

[Fillyjonk]

lol

teachers-how children learn-teacher training college

need I say more?

[needmorecoffee]

Give then Gatto's 'Dumbing us Down' and print out some stuff from Sandra Dodds website about unschooling (same as our autonomous learning)
If that doesn't work its possible they will never 'get it' and they should politely accept that you are doing it your way.
My in-laws never accepted autonomous learning but I can't stand them anyway so it was never an issue.

[Ivvvvyygootscaaared444]

I read all your post and then got to the part - they are retired teachers...

Sorry to say but there is your answer. You may aswell ask the pope to understand that there may not be a god.

Nothing against your PIL or the pope but they believe in the system and so does the pope.

[Litchick]

My friend has always been a bit anxious about The HE of his kids and was always 'secretly' testing them.
He still asks to look at my kids work from school etc just to assure himself.
He says he alwyas feels more relaxed once they can read and write fluently as this is something tangible. Perhaps your in laws will settle down once you have something to show them that it's all working iyswim.
It would be great if you could keep them onside - gps are invaluable for providing children a sense of who they are no?

[TooTicky]

I think it may just take time.
Sorry, that's not very helpful, is it?

[sorkycake]

I know you prefer to got the autonomous route, but would you consider a subscription to EducationCity Filly?

My parents understand why we're doing it and are okay in the main, but every now again (I suppose as we do, they panic a bit and wonder if it's right, blah, blah!)

So we signed up to EducationCity last year for both Dd1 & Ds1 and let them go on it themselves, when they wanted to, at their own pace.

I like strewing as well, so wasn't sure if I would be comfortable with this, but the kids find the games themselves and will come back to me if they need help, or if they want to do something else linked to a game they've just completed.

The literacy, numeracy and science are NC based, with 3 additional language subjects.

My parents have the codes to login down at their home, so if the kids stay over they can go on there as well and the questions stopped once they saw the site and the fact there was visible feedback etc.

The kids enjoy the games too, but on their terms.

PIL are taking a bit longer tbh. They are still at the stage where they don't talk about it

[BeNimble]

i have a retired teacher MIL. i'm forever banging my head on our adjoining wall. Home Ed is totally beyond her understanding. she LOVED her own schooling right through to teacher training... thinks the whole thing was fantastic. can't even acknowledge that her own kids didn't like much about school. she never returned to full-time work after raising her kids and retired ASAP after a health scare!

our DS isn't 5 until december so we've not officially started... though we'll continue in a child-led style anyway. yesterdays gem (she said to my husband) was that i'm 'babyfying' him because i've not started him a on a reading scheme. today it's getting on my wick...

so you're not alone. i guess you're quite lucky that you do like them. i've said before that i like my MIL... but it's wearing thin now.

[sorkycake]

Oh another thing we did was to say to both sets of parents if they found anything educational (other than just workbooks) in shops, charity shops etc could they buy it for us to look at and we'd give them the money.

This actually has worked out quite well. PIL have found science experiments on sale and bought those, some jigsaws with maps on, anatomy posters that kind of thing.
My mum is always on the scout for board games, especially Orchard Toys ones. she's good at ringing me to say she's spotted this, that or the other, would we like it.

They seem to be pretty happy to be involved like that, we just ask them to make sure whatever it is is game-like or fun.

HTH

[julienoshoes]

My mother didn't exactly disapprove because she was there when my son, her darling only grandson, said he didn't want his life anymore....

However the home education decision was hard for her to swallow. The totally autonomous home education was a step too far methinks.

However I got her involved by doing things that she had always done with my kids, that they enjoyed doing with Grandma anyway. Cooking is one of the things that she used to come over and spend time doing (although this died a death when the girls became vegan and started to tell her about the evils of dairy and meat )
She has always played card games/dominoes etc with them and got them involved with her jigsaws etc. I encouraged that-and when dd2 wanted to play word games, she went over to stay over, at Grandma's once a week and got thoroughly spoilt and played games with her-I think the key for us, has been to keep her involved, doing fun things.

I did have to step in and tell her out right to stop saying to dd2 (who had severe dyslexia)'how do you think that word is spelled' and 'you try and sound that word out' She was quite shocked that I told her to just tell dd2 the spelling she was asking for or to just read the word to her.
And my sister was forever getting worksheets etc.
So in the end I asked dd2 in front of my sister, 'Would you like to do this work book?' DD2 of course answered 'No! Why would I want to do that?'
My sister hasn't produced a work book since!

I'm afraid for my mother and my sister, the 'proof of the pudding has been in the eating' so to speak. The children are older and are getting results as good as those of her schooled grandchildren and better. I have heard my mother telling her friends about dd2 doing an OU course at only 15.

And she absolutely loves dd2 going to concerts with her and her friends. It makes me smile to see 20 OAPs and one teenager off out for the evening together!

don't know if any of that is of any help.

[AnarchyAunt]

My mum HE my db for 3yrs.

One day his granny asked him what they'd been doing that week (he was, ooh, 8 maybe?)

He told her "shopping with mummy and baking bread and going to the park and doing my weaving and washing up and going swimming and to cricket practice and making christmas cards".

And she said "Oooh well it doesn't sound like there's much time left for learning anything"

[AnarchyAunt]

BTW he went back to school, did well in GCSEs, is now at 6th form college and applying to do Geology at uni next year. And he has lots of friends, lots of outside interests, and is a fab babysitter!

So he must've been learning something....

[lindenlass]

Hello

Have you read any of the articles on joyfullyrejoycing.com? Maybe if your PIL read those they'd understand a bit more. It's not necessarily because their teachers - some of my greatest HE and Natural Learning supporters are teachers.

However there is nothing wrong with workbooks and educational websites and junk modelling or anything at all, as long as the child chooses it autonomously. Autonomous learning doesn't mean 'no workbooks' it means 'only workbooks if the child chooses them'. It means, choose stuff for your child for fun not for education - but fun things will never be totally non-educational and educational things may also be a whole load of fun and can be pursued with 'fun' as the primary objective rather than 'education' IYSWIM.

My children love doing workbooks too - they're in a bookshelf and they go and get them as and when they want, they do them for as long as they want, where they want and use whatever pen they want, and do the pages in whatever order they want. Same with using websites - sometimes it's playing on cbeebies, sometimes it's playing on education city, sometimes it's the angelina ballerina website, sometimes it's the bbc bitesize one - all on their own terms and all because they enjoy them, not because they'll learn from them.

So why not get some workbooks and a subscription to education city, and do some junk modelling, just to keep your PILs happy? You may find that if that gets them off your back, you feel less stressed and more free to get on with things the way you and your children like (and do best with) rather than fretting about what your PILs think. :-)

[needmorecoffee]

kids often do choose workbooks. My 3 all wanted more formal teaching as they reached teenage years. I did explain to them that sometimes getting those peices of paper is important as employers will look for paper qualifications before they read the bit about the person. Its a sad thing but thats how society is.
So HE changes over the years anyhow. My 2 lads chose to go back into school at 13 because they wanted structure. I couldn't supply it at home as my youngest child requires intenstive 24 hour care and it just wasn't possible to help the boys with the structure they asked for.
Course the in-laws are now thrilled they are getting 'school results' as they think those are much more valuable than anything else. Bugs me slightly and bugs me how they brag about the kids as if they had something to do with it. They never once supported us in 14 years or showed much interest (and rejected dd2 entirely) yet brag to nobby friends about A stars and what have you
ho hum
We aren't home educating dd2 yet. She needs some extremely complax equipment thats only supplied via a school plus we need the break that school is but if ever school isn't the right place then I'll take her out.

It is tough if in-laws are stuck i the school model especially if they are ex-teachers (they are definately the worse). I don't think MIL really 'got' HE and even now that she's met home educators she says some truly horrible and ignorant things about most of them. But like I said, she's a nice long way away and doesn't visit often cos then she'd have to clap eyes on dd2 and have to admit that maybe dd2 is her grandchild.

[TooTicky]

needmorecoffee, and

[Fillyjonk]

oh for you there nmc.

Mine are the same, really.

Whatever the dc do, they kind of seem to feel that the school would have done a better job . Or would just be somehow, intangiably, better.

I do actually use the odd workbook, just because sometimes the kids want to learn something and the workbook presents it in a particularly useful way. I'm doing an OU science course and the workbooks are structured in such a way that they are helpful. No problem with workbooks, I just object to kids being required to work through them in a set way, regardless of their individual needs.

It occurs to me that we are perhaps more child-led than autonomous atm. And I do lean towards teaching reading and numeracy, albeit pretty gently, before around 7.

PIL have an odd thing whereby they won't buy stuff for the kids for our house. They even like to keep Christmas presents at their house. Their house is around 500 miles away and we get there maybe 2 x a year. Yes its a very obvious bit of control freakery. that is what they are like, can't do much about it. My mum adores charity shops, and buys loads of helpful stuff for them, BUT she is massively on board anyway and

They have odd objections really. They don't want ds to learn the violin because they think "keyboard" is more useful. I am not really sure that ANY instument is especially useful, but violin is what ds wants to play. Its stuff like that.

[Fillyjonk]

oh and re education city, will check that out later, thanks for the tip.

I tend to be a little leery of computers and kids, mainly because both mine are very good at getting utterly, utterly wrapped up in something for hours and I don't really want them staring at a screen for that time...

oh ok its the steiner-kindergartener in my coming to the fore

otoh I do think it might be worth looking at, for reinforcement as much as anything else. DS does play chess on the computer and that has worked well.

Does EO still do a special deal for education city, does anyone know?

[Fillyjonk]

oh and re education city, will check that out later, thanks for the tip.

I tend to be a little leery of computers and kids, mainly because both mine are very good at getting utterly, utterly wrapped up in something for hours and I don't really want them staring at a screen for that time...

oh ok its the steiner-kindergartener in my coming to the fore

otoh I do think it might be worth looking at, for reinforcement as much as anything else. DS does play chess on the computer and that has worked well.

Does EO still do a special deal for education city, does anyone know?

[milou2]

Going back to your OP, the phrase 'they seem honestly to equate learning with being taught' jumped out at me.

I have discussions with people and often that concept of children needing to be taught comes up as the stumbling block. The parent, (I still do it too), desperately wants to teach something to their child and gets all pressurising and stressy with the child.

Teaching a child vs facilitating them learning a skill. We watch and cherish a child learning to walk and try to help them when they do it. So deep down we know how to home educate and we do it a lot of the time.

Mil did loads of home education as she learned how to use her lap top. I did push the process by refusing to allow her to use my son's email address any more! But she asks for help when she wants it and is so proud of the jokes she gets sent from her friends around the world. My son provides tech support. So she is home educated too at the moment and goes to U3A when she chooses.

One person holding their toddler asked me how to home educate and I pointed out that he was doing it right there and then with his son, listening, responding, talking...

Home ed is right in front of our noses.

Now I have written a long ramble too! HTH

[Fillyjonk]

no milou that is most helpful

I have tried to make exactly this point to them. FIL esp has taught himself a lot. He speaks fluent french, having learnt from scratch starting 20 years ago.

MIL is teaching herself the piano.

But they are so entrenched in their thinking. I feel like there must be a magic word I need to say for it all to click for them...

[sorkycake]

You can get a free trial at first see what you think and whether ds1 takes to it. Then if you subscribe and type in HOMEED (I'll check that for you, but I'm sure it's what we used), you get 10% off....then there's another code for 15 months for the price of 12.