Bullying.

[AbbeyA]

I am not going to join any more HE threads. My comments have been few: namely that some schools are good and some are bad; some HE is good and some is bad. One size does not fit all and one system is not superior to another. My other point is that HE is a lifestyle choice and ideally one parent should make it their first priority by being at home for a large proportion of the day.
I am very much on the side of schools because I loved it as a child, my DCs have been happy and I see good schools as exciting, vibrant, caring centres of learning. I don't expect everyone to have that view.
However I would deregister a DC for one of 4 reasons:

1. They were utterly miserable.
2. They were SEN and the school was not meeting their needs.
3. They were ill and too frail to attend.
4. The Government introduces the proposed lottery scheme and insists we have a sub standard school place.

I had always been heartened by the fact that there was EO and local groups and I wouldn't have to go it alone. However I would now be very cautious in even contacting them after the narrow minded views that I have come across on these threads.
I can sympathise, in that my parenting has never been questioned by anyone, and I can imagine that you get very defensive if your life choices are open to question and criticism every day but I really don't think that you have any idea how negatively you come across to an outsider when you all band together and show such aggression.
This is not everyone, I hasten to add, and some have put your views across in a kind and caring way.
My views have been strong but I have apologised when someone has been upset.
I can already hear you disagreeing so let us move this scenario to the school playground.

A small girl joins the school; she is a bit odd and doesn't fit with the norm. If she keeps quiet she isn't noticed but unfortunately she is quite opinionated and makes her voice heard. The group band together and are very aggressive in response. The parents visit the school to try and stop the bullying. The school and the bullies respond in amazement and deny absolutely that they are aggressive. One of them repeatedly asks what more they could possibly have done to help (show some empathy and concern thinks the small girl but she is too cowed by this time to say so).Words are twisted, 'think overnight' becomes 'lost sleep' and she is asked what her problem is. Others try to set her up for their own amusement -(awaits x's input).
Everyone denies there is any bullying and so there will be no change.

If this was my DD I would remove her to another school or HE, I expect that you would do the same.

Luckily I have the option and I am leaving-you can all join ranks and mutter that you are well rid of me!
I was going to leave with a dignified silence, which would probably be the sensible option, but I just wanted you to be aware that your defensive attitude is not the way to get people to appreciate your ideas. This is not everyone, some I admire enormously-but then not everyone in a playground is a bully.

[gibberish]

Sorry you feel like that Abbey. I'm not on the HE threads very often - we just amble happily along doing our own thing - so haven't seen what's been going on.

I suppose there will always be those with very entrenched views due to prior unhappy experiences with the schooling system. It's sad you feel you have been 'bullied'. There's room for everyone. As you say, there is good and bad in both conventional schooling and HE.

And there should be a place for everyone on the HE boards.

[juuule]

Abbeya I think you need to take a long hard look at yourself. You accuse other people of being narrow-minded but don't see the narrow-mindedness in yourself. You appear to be interpreting disagreement with you as aggression.
As you say one-size does not fit all and that is reflected in the many styles of home-ed. You have your seemingly set in stone view of what home-ed should be and appear to give the reasons that you would home-ed as the only reasons to (implying that anyone doing it any other way or for any other reason is not ideal).
You have been fortunate in your experience of schools and until a few years ago I may even have supported your viewpoint to some extent. However, not everyone has a great experience of schools and some disagree with the concept of schools completely. It seems you cannot or will not see these points of view but that is no reason to accuse people who disagree with you of bullying.
Not sure what you want, really. Your view of things is as valuable as anyone elses and it's always good to have someone give another view but just as not everyone is going to agree with home-ed, you can't expect everyone to agree with your views.
You are happy with your view of things and school is good for you and your family. I wouldn't let what is said on here keep you awake at night.

[emmaagain]

I apologise for the snide remark I made on another thread. You are right, I should have addressed the point raised in your post rather than made an ad hominem attack, and for that I am very sorry.

It might be worth considering what sort of reception a breastfeeding mother would get if she spent a lot of time in a formula feeding forum, making many claims about how formula feeding works best. Given that this hypothetical formula feeding forum is a place where people come for advice about formula feeding, the established and experienced formula feeding mothers would be unlikely to leave the breastfeeding mother's claims unchallenged when they are not based in day-to-day and long experience of formula feeding.

Of course your ideas here have been pulled apart when they do not reflect the reality of Home Education, its advantages, its disadvantages, its day-to-day practicalities, its diversity, its philosophy, as experienced by Home Educating families, because no Home Educator here would want anyone considering Home Education to get the impression that Home Education as you have presented it is in any way related to the day-to-day reality of the Home Educating families we know.

[Julienoshoes]

The difficulty is when someone states something about HE such as;

"they would have to write everyday, also essential they do Maths every day-I couldn't do with them pleasing themselves all the time I wouldn't take them shopping unless they were involved educationally. The equivalent of 5 hours would have to be devoted to learning"

and
"this is something that has to be taught otherwise bad habits are formed"

"Things need to be taught"

"Skills like scan reading and note taking need to be taught."

and these things are simply not true for many home educators -so either we do not say anything and leave potential new home educators with incorrect information-or we correct it.

Because we have corrected the misinformation given by some one who does not home educate, it is not bullying.

To dicate what home educate should look like, is not right-even the Government's guidleines on home education do not do that!

[AbbeyA]

I think on that one I might have given the wrong impression julienoshoes, I don't think that other people should be forced into anything. What I meant was that it would have been my way of doing things. I would have a certain amount of the child centred learning but I am a person of structure and boundries. I would sit down with handwriting practise and I would do Maths five times a week (I would have to have a vague plan e.g. fractions, decimals and percentages before Easter).I wouldn't for a moment want to impose this on anyone else (after all that is what you are getting away from!)I couldn't do it any other way but from what the less entrenched posters were saying there is room for all sorts in HE. I think that where it was perhaps misunderstood was that I was voicing a worry that I would have, if you don't have that worry then you haven't got a problem. I would have definite holidays (I daresay this is not the general way but it would be mine).
I like a debate and I think that this has been misunderstood, I am not attacking. I am standing up for schools because they are not as bad as they are painted by some people.
There are just nice ways of pointing things out. When I first came on these boards I made the mistake of disagreeing, quite strongly, with a post. One of the posters replied with a very gentle message that actually the person who started it was a very caring Mum, it was just a way of letting off steam and not to be taken seriously. I reread it in a new light and saw some of the posts from the person who had started it. I apologised and the original poster came on (who had every right to be annoyed) and was really sweet. On these threads my mistake would have been rammed down my throat and never forgotten!!
Juuule-my ideas are not set in stone!I like a discussion, I am telling you the way that I would start-I would fully expect to evolve once I started! Nothing is static, I may well find that I don't need a set period for Maths-but I would to start with it.

[AbbeyA]

'you can't expect everyone to agree with your views.'

I don't expect this! If we all had the same views life would be boring!

'I wouldn't let what is said on here keep you awake at night'.

It is not keeping me awake at night! I merely said that I had thought about something overnight, meaning that I mull things over before I go to sleep ,when there are not the usual distractions of the day. I like doing it-it doesn't keep me awake and I am not worried.

'Abbeya I think you need to take a long hard look at yourself'

I find that sentence aggressive.

We will just have to agree to differ Juuule.

[Saturn74]

FGS!

[juuule]

Okay -
No aggression intended, just a suggestion.

[Julienoshoes]

"There are just nice ways of pointing things out"

when I was talking about home educated children not having a problem getting on in life I said;

We haven't found this to be a problem to be honest.
We have used references from other people in the real world and we used the good GCSEs that Ds did have-and which he got despite being dyslexic and despite not going to school for 11 years and that got him onto the course he wanted.

Other home edders have got good apprenticeships simply because they are out there with the firms they have wanted to be working with-and not bogged down with homework/exams etc

Others still have bypassed GCSEs and A levels and have used the OU to get their degree or to prove their ability to work at the required level, for jobs/apprenticeships/college courses/university places.

The fact that they are home educated has helped them stand out from the crowd on the CV and in IMHO this has helped on their applications every time"

You came back with the comment to someone else
"They can get apprenticeships with no connections and no qualifications because employers think there CV is wonderful! Not one person at college on my son's apprenticeship was HEd. My husband wouldn't employ anyone with a CV like that"

Still not sure whether you were suggesting ! was lying or what

but nice?

[dramaqueen]

By emmaagain on Sun 20-Jan-08 15:08:40

"It might be worth considering what sort of reception a breastfeeding mother would get if she spent a lot of time in a formula feeding forum, making many claims about how formula feeding works best"

But Mumsnet is not a HE forum. This is a HE THREAD on a parenting forum, where AbbeyA's views are just as valid are yours.

[emmaagain]

OK. Call it a thread.

A thread with HE on the title.

And someone who doesn't HE comes in and says that it really ought to take 6 hours a day. And of course there's all the preparation time on top. Of course the HEers are going to point out that this is simply WRONG. That needn't be bullying, it is can simply be correcting a factual error.

And it is important for us to do so. On another thread (another conversation? Anyway, it's in the HE area of Mumsnet) another poster said that they had previously thought that to HE you have to follow the NC and do 6 hours a day, and they'd just dismissed the whole thing as an impossible pipedream, but thanks to reading here they now know that you don't have to do those things and they are HEing. That's why the HEers can't leave mis-information uncorrected. Because our knowledge is valuable to those considering HE, more valuable to them in wanting to find out about HE than the less-informed knowledge of someone who doesn't HE and is very school-minded.

Surely, surely this is a no-brainer?

[needmorecoffee]

The poster came out with stuff that wasn't true. Not bullying to correct that.
Most of her stuff was just fine and reasonable.

[SueBaroo]

AbbeyA, I'm going to assume I'm one of the people being called bullies here, because I voiced some strongly worded disagreement with you, and that appears to have been a problem for you.

If someone makes pronouncements about a minority situation that are based on faulty presumptions, in a group of people who actually have accurate information and experience, and that person is then strongly disagreed with, how is that bullying?

You have not been consistently 'nice', you have made it your mission to get us to 'admit' that you are right, and that hasn't happened.

I am subject to quite a bit real-life bullying, from people who hold to the same assumptions and misconceptions that you have repeated on the HE threads in the past few days, and I'm not particularly anti-school at all.

I'm glad you didn't lose sleep over the threads - I assumed that when you said you had lain in bed and thought about one of the HE threads, it had been in lieu of sleep. I am glad to hear my assumption was incorrect, because really, truly, when MN gets you upset to that extent, it's time to walk away from the computer for a little while (preaches to self).

[Julienoshoes]

Everyone's view are welcome but I think emmaagain was trying to say that someone who doesn't practice formula feeding telling mothers who do, how it must be done, might expect one or two of the mothers to disagree-and strongly.

[AbbeyA]

I am sorry-it probably sounded impolite Julienoshoes. My main problem is a lack of confidence that all will turn out OK in the end-I know how hard it was for DS to get his apprenticeship for example how many apply for each place with one big company and he wouldn't have got it without his results and the school, he is a lovely boy but he is quiet with not a lot of self confidence and he wouldn't sell himself.In my husbands view I live in 'cloud cuckoo land' with no idea of the real world so I am afraid he would be a bit prejudiced! I think people misunderstand the fact that I am exploring the subject and voicing the real worries to me and they are taking it as an attack.I suppose I should think more before I post.(People were right about the handwriting-we had a letter from the one I mentioned and although it was messy it was a mature hand so I guess it is a question of faith.SueBaroo I admit to not always being nice-sorry but I am not saying I am right. I don't think I could do it-I haven't got the confidence that all will be OK in the end.
Emmaagain-I hope you think ours was lighthearted.People like Yurt and Christmaspixie are probably better than expressing things than me.

[emmaagain]

our what? scratches head

Ah, Abbey, the worry of whether life will turn out ok... "Vivir con miedo, es como vivir a medias!" ('A life lived in fear is a life half lived.' God, I love that movie...)

[AbbeyA]

My problem is emmaagain, that I know I am a good mother. I had a vey loving secure childhood and it is easy to pass it on but I am not sure that I am the best thing for my DCs in other areas and would prefer to have other adult influence. I daresay they might blossom at home, be able to do degree courses or what ever they like-with good handwriting and be sociable, well balanced adults but I would be too worried that I had got it wrong! (I am not suggesting that other people have got it wrong). If you are a very structured person who likes boundries you can't just throw it all out-however much you might like to!
I expect people can keep quoting the not very nice things I said but I hope they were all attacks of views and not personal.I will just apologise in advance and leave the thread altogether. I hope that there are no hard feelings.I will get back to things I know something about!

[SueBaroo]

I haven't got the confidence that all will be OK in the end.

----------

Such a key point in HE, that, AbbeyA, confidence. Heart of the matter, I think

[AbbeyA]

One very last post and then I will stop reading them altogether. I think I perhaps I still seem a bit rude about the apprenticeships.That post caught me on the raw and I did lash out without thinking. The problem was that we had no idea that apprenticeships were so difficult to get.My DS got his college place early on having had an interview and tests, his GCSE results were much better than expected but 2 weeks before the college course started he still didn't have an employer.His options were closing in, college courses were full,I dare say school would have had him back but it wasn't what he wanted-the only advice he could get was do seasonal shop work and keep trying. I was getting to the tearful stage. Out of the blue he got a phone call from one of the places that he had sent a letter, they contacted the school and the college and asked to see him, it wasn't exactly an interview because I think they had made up their mind by then so it was a quick chat.
Of course HE children will get apprenticeships but it is misleading to give the impression that they will just walk into them.With some employers HE will work in their favour but in others (like my husband) it will be a deterrent. Any jobs are hard these days.My eldest DS, has much more confidence, will chat to anyone, has lots of spare time interests (some of which he has qualifications in)and a Science degree from a good university but he had to have 6 mths at home temping at office jobs. He then had to take a job that he didn't really want as a start and he now has a job that he enjoys (but still is not sure what he really wants to do).It is difficult for any young person today whatever their background.
Sorry-I missed the word discussions out of the the sentence with 'ours',emmaagain. I really meant you being my mother the Greek shipping heiress!!
I actually only came on to Mumsnet to get people to sign the petition at

petitions.pm.gov.uk/OpenEYE/

which is against the government testing and curriculum going down to babies, and them being assessed as soon as they leave the womb! I know that you don't use childminders and nurseries etc but you might like to help those that do. The new framework will mean that instead of freeplay, play will be directed by an adult with a measureable outcome.Babies will be expected to babble at a required age!! It is something that I feel passionately about.You might like to look because although it doesn't involve you it may well be a foot in the door of interference in HE.I am keen on schools but not the testing and National Curriculum, my argument is that good schools are getting beyond it. Anyway you might like to look at the OpenEYE campaign and the petition and then I might have done some good on this site!!

[Julienoshoes]

Your son has obviously worked hard to get his apprenticeship -as the mother of three dyslexic teens who have been in school,and step mother to one who went all the way through school, when we didn't know about HE, I can fully appreciate that.
You must be very proud of him-and quite rightly.

I didn't say it would be easy just to walk into them.
I told you of the experience of my home educated children and the many other HE teens that I know.
That we haven't found it to be a problem.

Being home educated often does make them stand out from the crowd on their CV, they often do have work experience that schooled children wouldn't have had the opportunity to have, because they are so bogged down with homework revision.

It seems to have worked again for my daughter this weekend.


It is possible to have a life of freedom and enjoyment and then go to FE college and do a couple of GCSEs one day a week and then start A levels the following year and then decide to go on to Uni.
That is what my son is doing.

I know of one home ed lad who started doing GCSEs a few at a time, followed by A levels, who not only got onto the degree course of his choice, but now who is the youngest person to do a PhD in medical research at the uni he is currently at.
'waves to his mom who is here sometimes'

There is another at Oxbridge doing law-without I think any GCSEs.

A close friend (and fellow dyslexic) is doing her paediatric nursing degree at the moment without any GCSEs or A levels again, she used the OU science degree course, to demonstrate her ability to study to the level. And spent the years before having a lovely stress free life and lots of life experience.

Now of course I am not saying that these guys did nothing to get these places, nor am I saying that all home ed youngsters can/will end up like this, but am saying it is possible and in my experience, they are all successful in the life they choose and going to school and struggling every day in school is not the only way.

[Julienoshoes]

petitions.pm.gov.uk/OpenEYE/

which is against the government testing and curriculum going down to babies, and them being assessed as soon as they leave the womb! I know that you don't use childminders and nurseries etc but you might like to help those that do.

Now there you go again Abbey

Some of us do use childminders and nurseries!
We are all different.


thank you for the link, those of us who are on the main HE support lists, will have already seen it, as it has been discussed there for the last week or so, but others here may not have been aware until now.

[terramum]

Thanks for posting that petition Abbey! I seem to have missed it on the main HE lists..haven't properly caught up after the house move.

[AbbeyA]

Well- if you do you use nurseries etc you need to be aware of it-it is curriculum by stealth. Anyone who provides child care and/or education will have to adhere to it, childminders,Steiner schools whatever. It was on the early years threads and they want 10000 signatures by September I think-it is getting near to the top of the education petitions but it had about 3500 last time I looked.I won't go into all the implications of the framework, as you can read about it elsewhere.The organisers wanted people to clear up some of the misconceptions on Mumsnet so I had a go. Unfortunately I had a look in the 'topics in the last 15mins'and offered a few opinions-which haven't gone down too well on these threads!!
I fully appreciate that lots of HE DCs get all sorts of jobs and super degrees etc. My HE friend knows a boy who never gave the impression of being interested in much (his sisters were more motivated)and he suddenly got his act together and went to Cambridge.It doesn't matter what background you have school/HE jobs are much more difficult to get than when I was young.

[terramum]

The EYC won't affect us personally as we don't use any childcare providers, but I have signed anyway as it is such a bad idea. My MIL is a childminder & is giving it up because of this. It's really because she has been childminding for 35 years now & is very very good at it. Most of DSs friends are the children she minds.

[AbbeyA]

This is terribly sad terramum but I think it will happen a lot-it won't be worth the hassle. Instead of providing the right environment for the children to blossom at their own rate they will have boxes to tick and will have provide the situation that will give the outcome to tick the box. As someone said-can't remember where -a toddler pushing toast around his high chair tray will be able to tick the box 'investigates making marks'! Spontaneity will have to be timetabled for 2pm on a Friday!!Sorry I am still posting but I feel so strongly about this. The childminder that has the children that I was arguing about on the other thread, with the HE children, will be included in all this because she is paid(I would imagine).