How do I get rhough to my mil?

[AbbyLou]

Hi all. I don't want to open a can or worms here but could really do with some advice. My dh has a half sister who is in Year 7. For various reasons she was 'educated' at home for Y4 and Y5, returned to school for Y6 and is now back at home. The trouble is my mil seems to do absolutely nothing with her. She has no idea of the curriculum an 11 year old should be studying. She is still buying books from Smiths for Y6 and working through them for Literacy and Mathematics. That's all they do apart from the odd bit of History or Geography. Dh bought his sister a book of Science experiments you can do at home with normal household stuff but the book has lain untouched on the shelf. They hardly ever go out and just sit around at home all day. It makes me so cross that she can het away with this. How can it be right? I am a teacher myself (Y1) so I am perhaps more frustrated than most about her lack of education. Mil doesn't seem to realise that she is sending her daughter now a path to the dole because she has no education. Dh has had to agree not to talk about it with his mum because they always end up arguing. She just can't seem to realise what she is doing. Do you think I am being harsh here or am I right to be concerned? I know there is an association for home educators to join and dh even offered to pay the subscription for her but she said she doesn't need it. Please don't jump on me for this. I am not questioning home education at all and I know from friend's experience that it works very well for some children. However, surely it need a bit more work on the parent's part?

[AbbyLou]

Apologise for thread title it should read through not rhough!!

[Saturn74]

It might be helpful for you to have a look at the Education Otherwise website, and the other threads on HE on here.

There are some interesting articles on the EO site about home education, including those by families who are more formal and structured in their approach, and those who are completely autonomous.

Your MIL and DSIL sound somewhere in the middle.

One of the major benefits of HE is that the child can work at their own pace. The fact that she is working at Y6 level for some subjects isn't a concern really.

"She has no idea of the curriculum an 11 year old should be studying". In my opinion, nor has the state school system!

[Saturn74]

Oh, and lots of links to books by John Holt, Terri Dowty etc from other MN threads too.

[juuule]

Does the daughter never go out? Anywhere? Are you sure they just sit around all day. That sounds very boring and would soon raise objections from my 12yo if that's all we did.
The mother does need to provide an education suitable to the child's age,ability and aptitude. There doesn't need to be a curriculum (nc or any other). It doesn't need to look like school, which maybe is what you are expecting to see as you are a school-teacher.
I agree with HC that you might find it helpful to read some of the articles about the different styles of HE which are on the EO site. Lots of other interesting articles on there aswell.

[Runnerbean]

Why did your MIL HE through years 4 and 5?
Why did she then return to school then come out again?
It's very difficult to give an opinion with limited information.
You say she is doing maths and english, history and geography, so she is doing some work and the year level isn't an issue as long as the child is working at her own level.
As for science, my daughter reads loads and watches tv documentaries and doesn't feel any great need to perform experiments, maybe the girl already knew everything in the book your dh bought, or perhaps she's just interested in science!
It's very difficult for outsiders to understand how HE works,
I agree with HumpheyCushion, Terri Dowtys "Free Range Education" is an excellent insight into how HE works, especially the autonomous way, which will seem to outsiders like doing nothing!
In particular for dcs of age 11 and above parental involvement is a lot less because HE kids tend to be a lot more self motivated.

[Runnerbean]

That should be isn't interested in science.

[Julienoshoes]

You sound a lot like my sister
for a long time she was buying books for my children and was getting very frustrated when they didn't want to use them!

Home education can look a lot different to school education-I don't even know what age Y6 relates to let alone what 'curriculum an 11 year old should be studying'
My three teens didn't study any curriculum and there were days when we probably looked like we were just lazing around-but then most of our education has been through purposive conversation and living life.

My lovely sister can't understand how our eldest spent 5 years doing no formal work at all, spent huge amounts of time playing Warhammer, computer games, fantasy role play games and going camping and just living life and then returned to FE college and fitted in really well academically and socially according to the tutors and got very good results at A level!
Our home education simply doesn't look anything like something she recognises as educational. My sister like many others assumes that education has to be hard work, has to follow a curriculum and requires lots of written work!

AbbyLou said;
She is still buying books from Smiths for Y6 and working through them for Literacy and Mathematics. That's all they do apart from the odd bit of History or Geography.

Well that sounds like she is doing much more formal work than we ever do-our youngsters wouldn't touch a work book at all.
They read books that interest them, research things on the computer and in the library, read newspapers, watch Tv and talk and talk and talk. For maths they have visited all the local banks and discussed interest rates on the accounts they were offered, worked out the angles to put up a Tee Pee, love Sudoku, have been budgeting cleverly for years and travel around the country and a very adept at managing bus and rail timetables, for example.
If and when they need more maths, they will be interested enough to go and learn it-until then they won't.

Have a look at the www.infed.org/biblio/home-education.htm An article that compares ?formal? and ?informal? home education styles

Also it is possible that your Dh's sister is still deschooling home-education.org.uk/article-deschooling.htm

Don't know if any of this will help you-my sister wasn't really convinced until she heard about my ds A level results-funny enough she is busy suggesting home ed to other parents with unhappy school children now!

[AbbyLou]

Thanks for all the suggestions of things to read, I would certainly like to learn more and perhaps ask her to look at them too.
Ok, a bit more info. My mil has always been a bit anti-school, especially as sil is an August born child. She resented the fact that she had to go to school at 4. I did point out to her that the legal requirement is actually 5 but she sent her anyway and just moaned about it. Sil was always happy at school although several house moves in a short space of time meant she changed schools rather a lot in the infants. When she went to Junior school there was a lot of bad feeling surrounding the Head and mil was not particularly happy to send her. However, she did. After a while she decided she dodn't like the school even though sil was happy and making good progress. My mil is a real 'jump on the bandwagon' sort of person and believes EVERYTHING she is told. You know what school playgrounds are like. Anyway she decided this Headteacher was corrupt and her daughter was no longer attending the school so she took her out for 2 years. In the summer holidays of Year 6 sil inherited a lot of money which was left to her to be spent on her education. Mil decided to use it to pay for taxis every day so sil could go to school in the next village. She was very happy there, made friends and enjoyed Year 6. However she lives in Lincs where they still do the 11+ and she did not pass. Mil decided that she did not want her to go to any of the local comps so she now stays at home.
As for going out, sil goes to dancing and Guides once a week so she is socialising with other kids a bit. However, I always thought Home Ed would involve lots of walks, nature, library visits, visits to the beach (they live on the coast) etc etc. They stay in most of the time and when they do go out it is just to do the shopping etc. I guess I am just worried that sil is not doing anything for a disproportionate amount of time. I take on board the comments about Home Ed not being a curriculum as such and perhaps I am more pushed towards this because I am a teacher. However, I just can't get my head around the fact that she can get away with not giving her experience of anything. I know through my job that kids love to learn and learn in many different ways but you have to inspire, interest and excite them to enable them to blossom and perform to their potential. Dh's main concern is that mil seems to think that there is no point sil doing any GCSEs. When he said she would struggle to get a job without them her answer was 'well she could always work in an office'!

[emmaagain]

I don't think there's much point doing any GCSEs. Have you looked at the syllabuses recently? Noddy is the word which comes to mind, frankly.

There are much more interesting and challenging qualifications to do if someone wants qualifications - OU courses, maybe International Baccalaureat (mental block ,can't spell it), maybe A levels or whatever NVQs are called now, extra-mural courses through WEA or a university Lifelong Learning department. When a person decides what path they want to follow, they discover what qualifications and experience, if any, are prerequisites. English GCSE not particularly relevant if what one actually needs is a Word Processing qualification.

Amazing how easy it is to get a qualification if it has a point for something else you want to do.

Have you asked the child? Is she happy doing her dancing and guides? Is she desperate for more expeditions? (and, er, how many expeditions do school children get taken on by their teachers every week on average?)

Educational potential of doing the shopping (off the top of my head): numeracy, budgeting and accounting, planning efficient path through shops/list, geography (looking at origins of foods, say), comparison of prices and weights and working out the best value bag of pasta, say... oh I can't even be bothered to write out more - I guess I'm trying to say that noone can tell what learning is going on inside someone else's head, but outside the school context, frankly, it is unlikely to look like what schools call "learning", which is very product centred. No need to make visible products of your learning all the time when it's one-to-one with parents and when, in fact, you have ownership of your own learning yourself - no need to prove it to teachers all the time, no need to be looking busy writing all day so the teachers are sure you're learning.

[AbbyLou]

Ok, I give in. I just hope she doesn't turn round to us in 5/6/7 years time and ask why we let her mum mess up her education. I suppose it's hard for people not in the family but I know mil and I know what she's told me and I know that very little learning is taking place be it formal or otherwise.

[edam]

Home edders, can you take a look at the AIBU thread saying 'I want to rip the headmistress's head off'? Inflammatory title but the little boy has really suffered and his mother has decided to home ed. Think she could really do with some support.

[emmaagain]

Sorry to be so aggressive. Of course we don't know the situation.

In your position, I would ask the child whether she wants advice, assistance, help, opportunities she's not getting.

but just be careful. You may well know that very little TEACHING is taking place, but unless you are there, listening to the conversations the child is having, seeing what they are reading and seeing and experiencing via whatever media, you really have no idea what LEARNING is taking place.

I think us educationalists can easily get tricked into thinking that when we've taught something to people they'll have learned it and that, conversely, people don't learn anything unless they are taught. Not true.

[Runnerbean]

Edam,
where can i find that thread?

[AMumInScotland]

I get the impression some of the HE parents on here don't believe that any parent who claims to be HEing could possibly be neglecting their duty to actually provide an education, but it may just be the case that there is an occasional parent out there who claims to HE when they are in fact doing nothing. And you may or may not have found one.

Autonomous education may look like "nothing" to an outsider, but I would have thought your MIL might be keen to explain to you the theory behind it if that's what they are doing, or at least to give you some sort of description even if she hasn't read up on the idea, although that might depend on your relationship and whether she feels the need to explain anything to you.

Unfortunately I don't know how to suggest you resolve this, beyond reading up on some of the links to different styles of HE, and talking to MIL and SIL about what they are doing. If you still genuinely feel that she is not getting an education suitable for her "age, abilities and aptitude", then you'd need to think whether you should bring this to the attention of the LEA, who have a duty to look into the matter. Obviously that would be a serious step to take, and could potentially cause the LEA to issue a school attendance order if MIL cannot satisfy them that she is providing a suitable education. Only you can decide if that is something you'd do in these circumstances.

I should maybe point out that I am very much in favour of HE, but it's not ok to use the term if you are not actually educating.

[AMumInScotland]

PS Educating meaning anything from actively teaching to facilitating your children's learning by providing them with suitable opportunities and resources.

[edam]

runnerbean, it was in active convos when I posted - don't know what section it's in but if you search headmistress hopefully it will come up. Poor kid has been really badly treated at school.

[edam]

hope this is it

[CharlieAndLolasMummy]

To be quite honest, I have a similar sitution going on with MY MIL, except that WE are the HErs and SHE is the one who thinks we are doing nothing.

We have explained and explained our educational approach, which IS very autonomous, but which is also, clearly, working.

If there is one thing I want for my kids it is that they love to learn, and have to tools to learn, all their lives. Thusly I don't really see a need to teach skills unless they are actually needed or asked for. It is far better that they learn how to learn IMO.

But at the same time, ds, who "should" be in reception, is obviously doing better than he "should" be for his age, even discounting the fact that he is an August birthday, with much too much energy to sit still for any length of time.

Most importantly, much of this comes from him-he has a great motivation to learn. He has no idea at all that some things are meant to be hard.

But PIL are obsessed with the idea that "education" must mean parents Doing Certain Things and look a certain way. And I am at a loss to understand why, really.

I have a first class honours degree, and 6 A levels. DP is even more overqualified, with a phd and an oxford first. I can tell you that there are VERY few jobs that you need specific qualifications for. What is far, far, far more important is people skills. With the right techniques, most people can pass most exams IME. Passing exams is easy, there are books devoted to how to do it. Knowing what you love and getting a job and a life to fulfil that is the hard bit.

To be completely honest, I am getting to the point of saying to my PIL "yeah well, if they can't read by age 15 they can always go on the dole. ". Because I am SO fed up of not being listened to, or trusted here. PIL, if you are lurking, we are not idiots, we are over-educated professionals. And believe it or not we have our kids best interests at heart.

Look. I am not trying to have a go. But from the other side-your behaviour here would make me very defensive.

[CharlieAndLolasMummy]

(oh and PIL are both teachers also...)

[SueBaroo]

AMuminScotland, I don't think HE parents can't conceive that someone might use the label to not do anything at all.

In this instance, it's really difficult to know how to advise the OP, who clearly has a pre-defined view of what an education should look like. The HE parents are not 'doing nothing' by the testimony of the OP - they're at least using workbooks, and the girl does dancing and guides.

We don't actually go out very much, because I'm disabled, and my children often while away the hours with pencil and paper or books.

The HE MIL is clearly feeling very defensive about the whole issue, and aside from offering support and information about further resources, there's not a lot the OP can do to 'get through' to the MIL.

If she is concerned enough to involve the local education authority, and happy enough for the upheaval and further family strife that would cause, that's the only other option to suggest, really. But I don't think the situation warrants it.

[AbbyLou]

I'm really sorry this conversation has taken such an aggressive turn. I said in the beginning that I have nothing whatsoever against HE and have a couple of friends who do it very successfully. One is a teacher who probably 'teaches' at home and the other couple do it together and it's much more of a hands on, experience things type situation. I only came on here to get some advice and now I feel really upset that people are being so defensive. It is absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I'm a teacher and everything to do with the fact that I feel sorry for the child. I don't have a clue what her views are and wouldn't ask her for fear of opening a can of worms. I certainly wouldn't dream of going to the LEA. If she wants to HE like this then that's up to her, I just think it's wrong. I never said anything about HE children not learning or not 'being where they should be' but I know she isn't.

[juuule]

I don't think this thread has turned aggressive at all. I think people with a lot of experience of home-ed have posted some excellent posts and tried to show how HE can look to someone with very little experience of it. They have not been defensive they have been trying to address your concerns. If you read some of the articles/books referred to in this thread you might find that you get a different perspective on the whole thing.
You do seem to be approaching the situation from a school-view perspective.

[CharlieAndLolasMummy]

Ok, I am reacting here a bit because I am going through a similar rough time with my inlaws. I am not in the least angry with you or anything, but right now, this is destroying our relationship with them. If I can stop this happening to another family, I want to do that, even if it means me saying things that don't sound nice. I figure you can always ignore me, but perhaps it there will be stuff in here that is helpful.

Here is the thing. It is so utterly HORRIBLE having someone constantly questioning what you are doing, suggesting that you are sending your child on "a path to the dole because she has no education", buying books, etc. The equivalent would be if your MIL was attacking you because you had sent your kids to school, turning up with workbooks, questioning whether you were committed or capable enough to make sure that your kids didn't chuck their lives away.

Here is what you could do if you are concerned and want to know how much your SIL actually knows. Start (or continue) to take an interest in her. You think she should go for walks-take her for walks! Find out what common interests you have, or what you do already that she might want to do, and try to develop a mentor-type relationship.

In my family, ds, who is 4, has two big interests atm-electronics and tudor britain (especially the great fire of london, for some reason!). (I mean he is interested in all the usual stuff, but those are the books he takes to bed with him).

FIL is a physics teacher and MIL is a history teacher. Our specialisms are biochemistry and mathematics, (and even more uselessly, we both had/have legal careers too) so these are known weak points for us. We can keep up with a 4 yo, but are probably going to need to find a mentor for him if these interests continue.

Now if PIL were to spend the time they spend going on and on about ds's lack education on reading books with him, building circuits, etc etc-THAT would be so wonderful! He would love it, I think they would love it, and as real enthusiasts, who do this kind of stuff outside work just because they love it, they would just have so much potential to advance his interest and knowlege. As a bonus aside they would see how he learns stuff-he's teaching himself to read from circuit diagrams, for example, and has gotten interested enough that he's asked us to teach him "properly" (I think he means "more quickly". Of course we will, and are just looking into which method/workbooks are likely to suit him best atm).

BUT they don't help, I think because they are not trained to teach primary (they think that there is a "correct" way to teach anything). But also because they disaprove and would see helping ds with his interests as colluding in our mad scheme.

At the same time, my family, all of whom are teachers also, have been incredibly supportive and I have seen the benefits to both them and ds in them sharing their interests with him. My brother is an electronics whizz and loves to share this with ds, and this has been incredibly beneficial, not just in terms of their relationship but also because ds has learnt so much-he has had 1-1 attention from someone who loves electronics.

I am serious, this is ruining our relationship with my kids' grandparents. I feel right now that my choice is between constant, really nasty, family rows, and sending my kids to school. We are seriously considering massively reducing contact, which would be an incredible shame.

Please don't let that happen to your family. Please take a really hard look at how you might be coming across to your MIL and, even if it means standing down on your principles, think about whether you can approach it differently.

I do hope this helps.

[AbbyLou]

Sorry, maybe it's just me being over-sensitive. I know there are people who know loads about HE and I know very little in comparison but I still feel as though things are not right. Sil watches so much day time telly it's unreal and while the likes of Jeremy Kyle may be an education to some of us I don't think it's appropriate for an 11 year old to watch day in day out.
Believe me I am certainly not obsessed with education being about a curriculum - I personally hate the rigidity of the NC - but surely it does need an element of planning and organisation. I work in a school where we have tried to move away from the NC and QCA as much as possible to make sure we provide an education that is fun, interesting and exciting. I don't really think HE has anything to do with the educational qualifications of the parents but needs parents who can nurture their children and help them to develop. SIl knows nothing about the world. She doesn't watch the news (too boring), she is not allowed to go anywhere by herself, even to the toilet ina restaurant/cafe (another discussion entriely), she is not allowed to cross even small roads by herself and she is very, very immature. Dh is just very concerned about her development, academically and socially. Oh and by the way, he isn't a teacher and never will be....

[AbbyLou]

Sorry, x posts CandL mummy.
I'm sorry you are going through a tough time with your in-laws. This problem does not really affect our relationship with mil because her dh have come to an agreemnent not to discuss it and to agree to disagree iyswim. I certainly have never questioned her methods to her face and never really discussed it with her myself, this post was more for dh than me. She however, constantly questions our parenting and you're right, it really gets my goat!
Unfotuantely dh and I work full time and mil and sil leave 2.5 hours drive away otherwise we would be taking more interest in her believe me. When we go over we offer to take her out with our kids but mil doesn't let her go out much without her, she doesn't seem to trust us to look after her!
You sound like you have got some really supportive family too and you are lucky there. Mil hasn;t really got any family near her that could help. Dh is an absolute Maths whizz and mil has often rung him to ask him howto explain things to sil. If we were closer I know for a fact that he would spend time with her doing Maths problems and stuff like that. He would love that.
As for the Science book, sil asked for a book of Science experiemtns so we honestly weren't shoving it in their faces.
I hope I haven't come across as narrow-minded, and thank you for your suggestions.