help - almost three yr old - SEN or just gifted?

[mummyreb]

Hi,am needing some advice about my ds. He will be three in a couple of months.

He seems to have quite advanced skills in numeracy, eg by his 2nd birthday could recognise a pentagon, hexagon, octagon and could name them when seen together or seperately. since being about 2 1/2 he has been able to count to 50 and can recognise numbers up to 1000. Also since 2 1/2 he has been able to tell the time (o'clock, half past and quarter to/past). he sees numbers everywhere he goes.

He is also very curious and very observant and has also got very clear and mature speech and conversation.

however, at nursery they are raising a question mark over his social skills and want him to have a special needs assessment. I agree with them that he does struggle socially - he is just not at all bothered about interacting with children his own age. he loves adult attention/interaction and also of older children - and is very sociable when surrounded by adults/older children.

They are hinting ASD at nursery - but i feel really uneasy about it. am i wrong to feel like this?

i have been reading about ASD and there are some key 'symptoms' that he doesn't show at all - for eg his eye contact is excellent and is a very loving, affectionate little boy.
However he has been a arm flapper since being able to sit up!

any advice would be appreciated!
thanks

[jabberwocky]

Gifted children do have some traits that some people think are "aperger-y". But that doesn't mean that they are necessarily on the spectrum. I would do more research on giftedness as it sounds like that is really what is going on. You really can't get a proper IQ and basic skills assessment until he is 4 but at that point I would recommend getting that done.

Good luck with everything. Navigating the realm with a gifted child is not easy - but it's never boring

[scrooged]

He sounds like my ds, he's highly academically gifted. I'll be back later though.

[LargeGlassofRed]

My friend little boy is just like this his number skills are amazing. But social skill are behind and he finds it hard to be with other children.
He is much better with older children he is 3 but has problems when with his peer group.

[mrsturnip]

Have you taught him the shapes? My son (now 9 - completely non-verbal with severe learning difficulties) could recognise pentagons/hexagons and trapeziums and divided by signs etc etc aged 2. In his case it was because he had no interest in toys or playing so we would interact over shapes and letters and numbers, the things he did like. He also (despite being severely autistic) is affectionate and has good eye contact- eye contact is his main method of communication tbh. He's still very clever with shapes and visual things tbh.

I think you need to ask the nursery why they have the concerns they do. Not wanting to interact with children would ring some alarm bells with me but not necessarily that many; I would be more interested in things like his behaviour at circle and meal times. Does he understand that he needs to behave like the other children, e.g sit when they do. If he 'gets' that then I would be very reassured.

[cory]

Not-quite-three seems a bit early to make one's mind up unless his traits are very pronounced. Interacting with other children hasn't always deveveloped by that age. I would be more interested in how much he understands of social expectations, like mrsturnip says.

otoh lack of eye contact is not a necessary sign of aspergers, nor is lack of outward of affection.

[coppertop]

Children with ASD can have good eye contact. Many are also very affectionate. My 6yr-old with AS often comes and sits on my knee for a hug. Today he gave me a kiss on the cheek "cos it's Valum-times Day today, Mum".

In your position I would take up the offer of an assessment, even if only to rule out any problems.

[Dottoressa]

The line between giftedness and Asperger's is tricky. However, in a way it doesn't matter - your DS is a bright, interesting, loving, affectionate little boy. If he interacts with adults and older children, he doesn't have a problem socially; he is just seeking out people who are more like him at the moment. I've been through all this with my DS, who is now, at 6.9, much better with his peers - though when he started school at five, he appeared not even to register their presence. Until then, I'm not aware of him ever having spoken to another child, despite the fact that I took him to toddler groups, coffee mornings and so on. He just used to buttonhole the adults!

I wouldn't worry about what his nursery says. They generally like children to fit into neat categories, and your son may not do this. I'd be more concerned to make sure he ends up going to a school where his needs will be catered for. This has helped my DS enormously - he's the cleverest child his teacher has ever come across, apparently (and she's been teaching in prep schools for 30 years) - and the school is very good at catering for his brightness whilst also helping him enormously to socialise and co-operate with his peers.

Children like this are very hard work, but wonderfully rewarding and easy to teach. Enjoy him!

[nickschick]

I think that if a child is excelling in some areas of his development then its quite often at the cost to some other area ie ds1 could walk v early but his speech was later etc etc perhaps your son has educationally matured before he has emotionally ??

I dont think theres any harm in being 'ware' but i do sometimes think small step away can give the child a few months 'catch up' time before involving them in assesment....tbh you know your ds you know your gut feelings.

[Dottoressa]

PS There's a lot of v interesting research on Asperger's as being an extreme form of the male brain rather than a 'dysfunction' (Simon Baron Cohen is worth googling). I've wondered about having my DS tested for ASD, not least as he appears to have no empathy whatsoever, but have rather decided that he is as he is, and we have to give him every opportunity to be the best 'him' that he can be. He is starting occasionally to parrot empathetic phrases, though shows no emotion whilst doing it!!

[gagarin]

why not say yes to the assessment and see what it comes up with?

[Coldtits]

The people who assessed ds1 are 95% sure he has autistic spectrum disorder (so they told me) but he is an EXTREMELY affectionate, sociable child, and his eye contact isn't much less than average. YOu can be loving and affectionate and still not have the slightest idea of how you SHOULD be behaving. Ds1 just wanders off while people are talking to him - he's nearly 6, and shouldn't do this, but apparently this is common in children with asd.

HOWEVER

The nursery is staffed by nursery nurses. NOT psychiatrists. And in my experience, since the EYFS crap, they have to constantly monitor children's social behavior, and those who seek horses will find horse shoes on ants.

[scrooged]

I would say yes to the assessment if it's free! I wouldn't worry though. He just has not found a way to relate to other children his own age. It took my son a very long time to do this. He used to talk to the staff more at nursery, he knew the alphabet at 14 months so would walk around spotting and reading letters everywhere, on street signs, fire hydrants, sometimes in the most obscure places. Someone brought him a bus with the alphabet on it for his first birthday, you press the buttons and it says the letter type thing. 2 weeks later he knew them all out of sequence and by sight, he could also count to ten and knew the shapes on the top. I didn't think it odd at the time. He also knew all of the Mr Men by looking at them all on the back of the books. It was funny really, I never thought that he shouldn't be doing these things as this was him.
He started nursery a year later and none of the others were the same. His language skills were very advanced. He skipped the two word conversations and went on to whole sentences so he couldn't communicate with the other children so he'd stay with the staff so he could talk to them. He's always been behind his peers socially, he does play and talk to them but I've had to put the effort in and teach him these skills so it's taken a long time. I don't think he has aspergers, he has none of the other signs and has responded really well to the help and support he has been given. Alot of schools/nurseries etc pick out children who are not like the 'norm'(whatever this is) and have them assessed for no reason. It's not a bad thing for some, for others it labels them. Children develop social skills, like all other skills (reading etc) at different rates. Some pick up things really quickly, others need a little help. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them or they have special needs. It sounds like your son would benefit from having a friend who he can relate to. My son forms friendships with other children who are a bit silly as he can relate to this. Playdates can be good, you just need to show him the way and what to do. Play's really good at this age as they can learn alot and learn how to get on with others, a sandpit can be fantastic as they have to cooperate. You may need to seek out a child that is bright though, this way they will both benefit as the other child will be in the same position.
Feel free to CAT me if you need anything. Just throw all the books on child development out of the window. There's no such thing as a 'normal' child, they work at their own pace, they all reach different milestones at different ages. It's easier to just accept them as they are and not to compare them with other children. The more you know your child the easier this gets. Try not to worry and go with his flow.

[scrooged]

Dot: It's normal for empathy to kick in during a boy's teens or at 9-10 by the way if this helps. They are less mature (most of them) then girls so try not to worry. You can help by talkin to them about other people, people watching to guess about how people are feeling etc.

[fortyplus]

He sounds just like a friend's son who is a little geeky but managed to get 14 GCSE A* grades and has just been made an unconditional offer to study Physics at Cambridge!

[Dillydaydreamer]

From what I have read it appears that it is totally normal for gifted children to be unsociable with their peers at this age. It stems from the fact that his speech and understanding is way above their level and he has nothing in common with them, much the same as most 5yo don't want to play with babies and toddlers on a regular basis iyswim.
Arm flapping can be an ASD trait or it could just be a habit he has. With ASD children tend to excel in one area but have lots of other deficits i.e. brilliant with facts and figures or maps but lacking in speech and language.
Is he toilet trained?
Is his physical development good?
Can he concentrate on tasks and has good co-ordination for pencil control etc.
You have to look at the whole picture.

[Dottoressa]

Coldtits - LOL at horseshoes and ants.

Scrooged - all so very familiar from fire hydrants to talking in long sentences from the start. The funny thing is that I thought DS was totally normal (apart from only talking to adults) until DD came along (now 4.8 and just learning to read - still not entirely sure of some letter sounds). Now I think DS was probably unusual (as well as being unusually difficult ).

Thanks for the words of wisdom re. empathy. His usual response when I ask how someone might feel is "angry". At the moment, he interprets all facial expressions apart from smiles as anger. Oh the joys!

[scrooged]

Lol! We looked at the Oxfam web site for some real emotion. It was harsh but the penny dropped.
I thought he was normal. Then he started nursery. He didn't manage well in a state school, he was just too far ahead when he started. He's 9 now and has a maths age of 14, a literacy age of 16+ so his school has their work cut out for them, I'm glad it's not me . It took me 5 minutes to teach him to read. He asked so I taught him how to read 'it' and 'the'. I didn't do anything else. He was 3 and a half. This was a mistake. He'd read emails (mine), joke books (he's now a clown), cards in shops (yes, the rude ones too), the magazine before I've paid for it so I have to buy it, he'll never read it again though. It's not much fun! Then I get the jealous parents blanking me at school or the ones that feel sorry for him because they think I make him work all the time, then there's the teachers that think I'm a pushy parent because I know he's bored and unhappy. I don't seem to be able to win sometimes so it has it's downs. I've not met another 5 year old that wants to discuss Newton's theories so I guess he's unique, there's alot of ups. Then there's the cost of nurturing and supporting him. Ouch!

[Dottoressa]

So we're not the only ones [relieved emoticon]. Bizarrely, I've had pushy parents seeking my advice on how to bring their children on to this kind of level . They find it hard to believe that I have done stuff all beyond telling him the letter sounds once when he was about two. I think he learnt to read by obsessively perusing the Dyson pages of the Argos catalogue .

DS, at three, was in the stage of reading anything and everything. On one particularly memorable occasion, he decided to read aloud to his Granny (in his usual dulcet tones) in the queue for Castleton Caverns that one of them was known as the Devil's Arse. Needless to say, I can only MN when he's not reading over my shoulder!!

It can be very hard work, and I don't envy his teacher. But in a way, it's delightful, too. I am a bit fed up with telling DD that 'Kipper' says Kipper and doesn't say Biff or Chip (we bypassed the ORT with DS!) She is more interested in what to wear than she is in reading. Ah well! She is at least not quite so high maintenance, which is something of a blessing in itself...

[scrooged]

Ahh, the Argos catalogue!

I see the pushy parents and have pitty for how miserable they are. I feel sorry for their children though, they look so stressed. None of them can understand how ds does so little, is so happy doing so little but is so bright. He didn't do the ORT either. He went from the two words, to the Mr Men books, then to horrid henry and Roald Dahl. He's addicted to my laptop now though! Typical 9 year old!

He used to read graffiti, this was embarassing!

[Dottoressa]

LOL at graffiti (memories of what we used to call the 'naughty drawing snicket' when he was a toddler come to mind... yes, another reading opportunity on a plate!)

[scrooged]

I had to phone the council a few times and ask for it to be removed. I didn't explain it was because my 4 year old could read 'Kelly is a whore' and was asking me questions.

[solidgoldbullet4myvalentine]

My DS has been 'observed' by outside experts at the request of his nursery, too. He is 4 and can read, count, do simple sums etc - according to the nursery he has passed all the goals for early years learning or whatever. But the main reason for the outside assessor to come in was to advise the nursery on things they could do with DS that would keep him interested and learning - they might be doing the same for your DS.

[sprinklycheese]

Was that at a state or private nursery Solidgold?

[mummyreb]

thanks all for your comments.

good to know I'm not alone - and LOL at all the funny anecdotes!

Coldtits - I agree about your comment re nursery nurses... i read some of their observations of ds - he could have worded them better himself! if I didn't know better I would have thought the observation has been written by an average 10 yr old not a 20 something nursery nurse!

Dillydaydreamer - we are currently toilet training, which he has picked up quickly - but still in the stage of me having to initiate the potty visits. he forgets to ask.
yes - he has very good concentration and his fine motor skills are pretty good, prob average (eg holding pencil)- although his academic ability is way ahead of his ability to 'write' - which he finds frustrating. for example he wants to do simple adding and taking away sums - and reads the sum in a work book, but can't write the answer. so we use number magnets on the radiator.
His physical development is normal as far as i can see.

scrooged - i found your description of your ds as toddler reassuring - you could be talking about my ds.

The idea of teaching him how to socialise with others is something i hadn't really thought of - I'm going to work on it...

Does anyone know of anyways to encourage him to stop the arm flapping?
Becky x

[sprinklycheese]

Mummyreb - I've had concerns about ds and his lack of interest in other children. Frankly he has largely ignored other children until now.

This week, for some unknown reason, he's really turned a corner (he's 3.7) by the way. He's been much more sociable and actually played with his cousin yesterday and a friend today whereas previously he'd have monopolized the adults or played alone.

So you might just need to bide your time and it will come anyway - although of course some gentle encouragement won't hurt.

Ds just didn't seem to see the point of other kids and has said he doesn't know what to say to them because they don't answer his questions. I think the only thing that's changed is that others his age are now better able to have a conversation with him and, as they all head for 4, seem to be becoming a bit more predictable (he hated other toddlers at the biting, hiting, snatching toys stage - he just didn't seem to understand why they were being like that!)

There is a fab book about very smart kids called Losing our minds by Deborah ruf that I'd thoroughly recommend. When I read it so much rang true about ds.