Worried about Local schools AND daughter's advanced ability :(

[YummyMummy21]

Hi

My DD 3.5 seems to be very advanced for her age compared to others her age and I am worried that when she is going to suffer and not continue to develop to her potential when she starts at school due to over crowding and low school results.

Firstly I am not a pushy mummy who thinks her child is better than everyone else's i promise. However, I do know that my daughter is advanced for her age. It was apparent quite early when she lifted her head clear off the ground at 4 weeks, and crawled at 5 months etc. She is now 3.5 cant count to 60 and not just 1-60 but can give me x many objects. She can also count to 10 in Spanish and speaks basic Spanish (not a 2nd language spoken at home either just picked it up on family holiday). She knows all shapes, colours, and can also distinguish which object/image is different to others. She knows her letter sounds and words which begin with them, not just memory either as she makes words up and has started to read basic words such as cat bat mat, dog, frog, log etc.

Basically the reason for me writing this is that we have just moved into a new area where the schools are very over crowded to the point that I can not get her into a school nursery for this sept, and every school has large waiting lists of children in catchment area, and made longer by children out of catchment area. The schools in the area are not great and appear quite low on the LEA's list of schools. The school (the best of bad bunch if you like) I was hoping to get her into which also happens to be closet have told me that although they will put her on the list for sept 09, they do not believe it likely that she will be given a place due to high applicants, as we are not in the catchment area and usually they don't get to offer places to non-catchment area applicants. The school n my catchment area, which also happens to be over subscribed, is the worst in the area, I visited the school and cried after I had left (luckily I manged to wait till I was out of sight). I am worried that due to the large classes and over-all school attitude that she will not be able to thrive and reach her true potential. But will instead become bored. I saw this happening to my eldest brother ho went from top of his class to dropping out of school because he became bored and frustrated at school.

Can I refuse to send her to this school, who/ where can I go to get her into the better school, it seems ridiculous that the school can be closer in miles, yet not in catchment area. Even if she were to go to the better school, how can I help her not to become bored, but not be dragged down/ not carrying on developing when the class will be taught at a slower pace. Am I driving myself insane for no reason. Has anyone had a seemingly advanced child, that has gone to a not so great school but has continued to advance?

Thanks in advance for any replies x

[alipiggie]

Can you afford a private nursery for her? You can always give her the additional support and stimulation she needs at home. Just one tip, please let her be a little girl though and have fun as well. If she is truly talented and gifted i am sure you will find a way for her to receive the education she deserves.

[LargeGlassofRed]

I really wouldn't panic unduly, most schools are well used to coping with a wide range of abilities and you can always suppliement at home.

I look after a 3.5 half year old who can do around the same as your little one, so while bright I don't think its beyond what most schools could cope with.

Have also met a 3.5 year old who could read and write in 4 languages lovely little boy but socially very much a 3.5 year old.

[gladders]

hahahah - she's advanced because she lifted her head at 4 weeks...... and because she can tell which is the odd one out....

how amusing.

[AMumInScotland]

If the catchment area school is so terrible, why is it over-subscribed? More often you have a situation where there are a number of schools which are perceived as "better", which are oversubscribed, and one or more "poorer" schools where you end up getting a place because they have fewer applicants.

Any school which is full will have the same class-size surely? I know that smaller class sizes are generally a good thing, but do they vary that much between popular state schools? Up here, popular schools will all tend to have classes of the maximum size allowed by the area.

What about the school was so terrible that you cried at it?

You can always refuse a place at the school if you can't stand the thought of your child going there. But you will then have to take your chances on applying for other schools, or will have to look at independent schools or home education, as your child will have to be in fulltime education once she reaches 5.

[moopdaloop]

she sounds bright, but not unusually so for her age so stop worrying in terms of her abilities and look for a school you will be happy with

[GooseyLoosey]

Why did you move into the catchment area of a poor school knowing that this would be a problem? Can you move?

I think I would also wait for a while before deciding how advanced she is - time is a great leveller at 3. Ds (now 5) could explain the theory of gravity and global warming to you at that age but has terrible fine motor skills so is behind in things like writing and his social skills are also worse than those of other children.

[SheSellsSeashellsByTheSeashore]

my dd1 was very advanced at 3 she is nearly 5 now and knows a lot more than she lets on because she realises that her friends dont know the things that she does.

she is still advanced compared to her friends but by no where near as much.

if you work, even its just pt the government help towords funding private nursery untill the age of five.

could you move? i only agreed to move into dh's grandads house when he inherited part of it because it was close to a very good primary that lead onto a very good secondary. though i have it on good authority from a teacher that i know that by the time dd1 is in secondary and probably much before that most school will be performing pretty much the same and will all be doing well as the lea is really cracking down on schools that dont perform well and trying to solve the over subscription problems too. so i wouldnt panick just yet.

[msdemeanor]

The fact that a school is oversubscribed does NOT mean it will have larger classes, you know. It just means that more children will fail to get it. I am also very sceptical about a primary that manages to be both failing and very over-subscribed. That rarely happens.

[tomkitten]

I think the best thing you can do for your daughter is stop panicking about it. If you have a negative attitute to the schools she will pick it up. If she is a bright child with good social skills the chances are that she will do well. Schools have changed since your brother struggled.

[SubRosa]

OP: my dd is exactly the same and is thriving. She's at middle school now, and although it's not the best school in the county, the teaching is very good. Please bear in mind that although teachers are overworked and have large classes, they are extremely adept at spotting the bright kids and giving them extension work, etc.

[1dilemma]

Assuming you're not just trying to give us something to laugh about I really wouldn't worry as others have said school at 5 is really NOT all abot learning multiple languages and physics. By all accounts ability or lack of it at 3.5 bears no relationship to ability at secondary/university for the vast majority of children.
re school you can refuse to send her and use private education or home educate or you can move.

[deanychip]

You must be very proud yummy, but my son could do all of those things too at 3.5. I thought that this was just kind of normal, because friends kids could too.
Now he is at school, he is defo average. But i am happy with this. He is happy, but proving to be a challenge to his teachers as he becomes bored easily.
Class size is about 28, he has pals and enjoys playing, that is what reception is geared towards as is playschool.
When we chose our school, i just loved the feel of the place, the kids looked happy and the atmosphere was calm and nice. I just took the plunge and put his name down very early on. Im glad we got his school, but the academic side didnt cause me any distress nor did it dominate my thoughts.
That i think comes about half way down my list of priorities for my little boy at this early stage.
Obviously i want the best for him and want him to reach his full potential, i just need for him to enjoy school, to look forward to going and to do things at his own pace, this is what is important to me.

Having been the "thicko" kid at the back of the class my whole academic life, i am ambitious for my son, but all in good time.
HTH x

[HonoriaGlossop]

I think you're crossing way too many bridges. She does sound a bright little button but she also sounds WELL within the normal range.

If this were me I think personally what I would do is look to moving to be in a catchment area where I was happy with the local infants school as a first step. Then TBH I would forget the 'she'll get bored' stuff and see how it goes! You can only judge when she's there. Most infant schools do deal with a HUGE range of ability and they are now very good at differentiating work for those that need more or less. Remember she is not going to school when your brother was, things have changed.

I think she's too young to be thinking the way you are and you need to let some of these worries go and just let her start school and see how she goes.

[FluffyMummy123]

Message withdrawn

[HonoriaGlossop]

How come you've just moved to an area where you can only choose 'the best of a bad bunch' of schools?

[pagwatch]

when my DS1 was three and a half he was talking about girls and why he didn't play with them.
"Don't you like them" i said
"its not that mummy" he said, "I simply regard them with the deepest suspicion"

I nearly crashed the car laughing.
He still became the boy who laughed at willy jokes for about a year aged five.

Just enjoy her. If school/ nursery is not meeting her needs later then worry about it then.

[usernametaken]

She sounds a bright little girl. I would tour the schools and whilst you are there, ask about their G&T policies. How do they cater for the more able pupil, will they differentiate etc.
Good luck.

[MrsMattie]

She sounds bright, but not super advanced, to be honest (no offence, but my 3.5 yr old son can do all of - and more than - what you've mentioned).

If you really don't like the local school, keep her on the waiting list for the schools you do want her to go to and cross your fingers. Unless you can afford to go private, there isn't much you can do. We're all in the same boat.

Also, think carefully about what you want your child to get out of primary school. Children who achieve well academically aren't always the ones who are pushed from the word go to 'achieve their potential'. They're often the ones who have learned to love learning, who enjoy school and have been encouraged and helped to build confidence both inside and out of their school environment (ie. at home, too).

Fwiw, we're sending our son to the nearest primary in our catchment area, despite it not having the best Oftsed report and SAT results. Why? Because it is small, it's very close to our home, it seems homely with great pastoral care and lots of extra curricular activities going on outside of school hours, and because it has loads of parent helpers & teaching assistants compared to any of the other schools we looked at, so the adult-to-child ratio is much higher than in some supposedly better schools.

Good luck whatever happens!

[YummyMummy21]

Ok firstly Thank-you to all those who have replied to the OP sensibly.

I didnt create this to prove to anyone how bright my Daughter was, and infact the OP wasnt full of what she can do because she does ALOT more and I have been told by a primary school teacher how "advanced" she is and that she is at the level of most five year olds because of the questions she asks and the way she answers things not just for her ability. I certainly do not need it to be confirmed by anyone anyway.

I actually said that she has ALWAYS been advanced.......which is the point I was making about the head lifting, because she has hit every physical, mental and emotional milestone early, i.e before others I know of the same age, and before text books say she should. Which is why I gave those examples, as really didnt want to go into everything that she is able to do as I am not the sort of person to boast.

I was mearly trying to ask to those whose children appear advanced pre-school, if their main stream education has supported their needs, and if you were allowed to refuse to send your child to the "catchment area school"

ALL of the schools are over subscribed due to the area, and the people who live here having large families. I cried at the school because of conversations i heard between teachers saying that they couldnt wait to go home because they have had enough, and hearing the receptionist moaning about a parent on the line, and just the general attitude and feel the school had made me not want to send her there.

Thanks anyway for you replies

[SmugColditz]

She sounds intelligent, not gifted. Any decent school will deal with an intelligent child appropriately, so please don't worry that you need to send her somewhere specific.

If you are intent on making sure she stays ahead of her class, you can do plenty with her at home, and they mix the classes well according to ability rather than age in most schools.

WIDEN her mind, teach her some music, or oil pastels, or make houses for caterpillars. You don't seem to be a pushy mum, but it does seem like you are missing the now for worrying about the future.

[SmugColditz]

YummyMummy, Mumsnet is FULL of mothers with exceptionally bright children - and they all do fine at school. You can refuse to send her to your catchment school, yes, but if you can't get her a place in another school, youi will either have to home educate her or face 'visits' from welfare officers once she turns five. The LEA is not under any obligation to allow your child into a different school just because you don't like the one that you are catchmented for.

[AMumInScotland]

I think most parents (on Mumsnet at least) are concerned to find the best school for their child, whether or not they are exceptional. And while some manage to get places in their preferred school, many others don't. All of them are in the same position - trying to do the best for their child, and make the most of the circumstances they end up in.

You are always allowed to refuse the school place offered, but you don't then have a right to demand something that you prefer - if you can show that the LA has not applied their rules correctly in your case then you can appeal, but there's no guarantee of success, and certainly not just because you want a particular school. Your child doesn't have any more right to a place at a "good" school than any other child.

If you are unhappy with the school, then my first suggestion would be to go and look at the others in the area, but you'll need to get information about which ones you might have a realistic chance of a place at.

I'm still slightly baffled by the idea that all the schools in the area are oversubscribed - what do the LA do with the extra children if there aren't enough places . They must be somewhere surely?

[cory]

First of all, having been advanced at age 3.5 is really no indication at how she is going to perform at primary school.

In my First Mums group we had a couple of children who were very advanced in the way you describe- physically early, reading early, knowing lots of words, good with maths. Others were much less so.

What we have found is that there has been a certain amount of levelling out since: some of the slow starters turned out to be very bright once they were 7 or 8, and the early ones though still bright are not exceptionally so (they are not, for instance, top of the class).

I was a very early child myself, while my brother was a slow toddler and a very middling performer in his first years at school. Guess who is the hight-flying professor now? But we both still thoroughly enjoy learning and the pleasure it brings and that's the main thing.

The best thing you can bring to your daughter's education is a positive attitude. Enjoy the clever things she can do and the thought of all the fun you can have together, exploring the world.

Another good thing to hang onto is the awareness that children develop at different rates. If she is still as bright at age 10- that's lovely. But if she levels out and is just average, that is not necessarily a failure either on your part or on that of the school system; it may just be that the other children were slower starters and have now caught up.

[cory]

Whatever the school is like, the most important person when it comes to developing your daughter's interest in life and pleasure in her own mind, is going to be yourself. If you show her that you think learning is wonderful and the world is an exciting place and that you enjoy talking to her, then it would take an awful lot of bad teaching to wreck that. Really it would.

[Romy7]

you are allowed to send her where you want, as long as you can get a place. g & t isn't criteria on the application form though and they don't formally assess. ds1's pre-school requested the lea to get involved but they just laughed tbh. (i didn't know anything about it until later).
all mine in regular schools (not catchment as i was lucky enough to get into a different oversubscribed school (the head of the catchment school had told me not to send my kids there) and they can differentiate appropriately. it takes a while and you mustn't be too hurried about it - so let her just carry on reading at home etc, and get on with being a kid. huge range of abilities in yr R anyway, so teachers well used to coping with both ends of the spectrum.