Need a bit of guidance in talking to teacher (and dd)

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

dd is very able academically. She is in YR3. The Junior school is separate from her old Infant school. Literacy is fine and handled well - she has been bringing in her own book since YR R. She is pretty good at making the most of writing assignments - she says that she can put in as much as she likes.

Its maths that has always been harder to get her stretched in. Her own teacher has admitted in a roundabout way that it is hard with the extreme range in her class. dd consistently gets full marks. they did some assessments last week and dd said that she had time to check her work 4 times.

She picks things up so quickly - wanted to know how to divide double digits into large numbers so I showed her long division. She understood it first time and had fun playing with it for 20 mins. I suspect though that many kids in her class would understand if they were shown so I'm not sure thats a good indicator.

dd was upset last night. She said that maths is boring so she tries to help other people in her class but they get cross cos they don't understand her (lol!)

She also says that showing workings out slows her down when she just knows the answers. She does show her workings out and is accurate with them, she just hates it when it seems pointless on what to her is very easy stuff.

Shes also becoming aware that she is different from others academically, she got upset last night that the other kids tell her she is the cleverest in the class - I do point out to her that everyone is different and has different talents but I'm not sure what else to say to her?

My main aim is to make sure that dd grows up well rounded socially and happily. However I don't want her getting bored and tearful and I'm concerned that she isnt actually learning how to think and puzzle things out in maths.

I've got a meeting on thursday with dds teacher to talk over all this but I'm not sure how to handle it, or the approach to take. I certainly don't want to come across as pushy or that I'm assuming that the teacher doesn't know what shes doing - I'm sure she does; dd certainly isn't unique. I'm just concerned about dd.

Any advice please?

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

erk.
sorry, that was rather long!

[Enid]

you could try maths whizz at home?

dd2 does it, its great

www.mathswhizz.com

[Enid]

it costs £27.50 a month

[cory]

I would spend some time finding something really interesting and stretching to do at home. And then put it to her that sometimes maybe she will be a bit bored at school, but that that isn't really worth getting hung up about, considering how many interesting things she gets to do at home.

Explain that as she moves up in school the work will get more interesting and she will find herself with more congenial friends.

When I was her age, I knew considerably more English (foreign language) and history than my teacher. My parents, instead of getting worried about it, let me start German and Classical Greek at home and gave me free access to their very well stocked library. If I had to spend the occasional hour at school being bored, that was nothing compared to all the exciting learning that I knew I could do at other times.
(they did insist on my behaving at school even if I was bored though)

[fircone]

Enrol in piano lessons with music theory. Maths and music can go hand in hand, and as the theory gets harder, the brain gets a real work-out.

[Enid]

yes music excellent

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

Enid - not heard of that before - thanks

Cory - thats a good idea - I'll have to have a think what I could do with her. By far her favourite thing to do is to read those horrible science books (and quote them back at us endlessly) Shes got so many interests; fossils, horses, science, world war 2 , fish, pokemon (!) and I just let her dabble as she likes.

fircone - she does do violin and its great, its the first thing that she has found challenging in life. She gets so frustrated as shes not used to finding things difficult.

Yesterday she decided to write music for a concert. Her grandparents are coming in a couple of days for the first time in four years. The only problem with the concert is that she has also written words to go with her music and I am expected to sing them and do actions to go with them. My parents are going to think I've lost the plot!!!

Just had a phonecall from school asking to move meeting with teacher to 8:25am friday.

[edam]

Oh your post brought back memories so I do sympathise. HATED having to slow down and show my blasted workings-out in maths. And spend half an hour doing simultaneous equations when I'd got the point straight away and wanted to move on to something a bit more complicated. Probably the reason I got fed up with it and did arts A-levels.

Enid's idea looks good. I'd try to be constructive with the teacher, explaining that dd is frustrated and asking for her ideas about overcoming this - how to encourage dd to develop rather than turning her off. Making sure she doesn't think it is a criticism of her teaching.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

Thats the challenge isn't it - I don't want to come across as criticising her teacher but I could do as you suggest and put it to her that dd is feeling frustrated by maths and can she suggest ways that we can overcome it.

Homeworkwise with maths - she rattles off the work and then I write underneath 'I then asked dd to....' so last week it was simple maths, '36 turtles, 12 green snakes blah blah...work out the difference, how many in total...' so I suggested that she did a graph to demonstrate. She decided on a pie chart cos she likes those, did all the calcs in her head (got her to write 'mental maths' next to it) and drew a lovely chart. But it still wasn't a challenge for her so I really really hope her teacher has some better ideas.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

btw - thanks edam

[JaneLumley]

Hi, badkitten.

If you aren't great at maths yourself the Kumon programme is very good for stretching them - goes right up to calculus. No need to show workings, either

As others say, important not to let her feel that lessons are commonly boring/easy - she does need a bit of stretching, as all kids of any ability do - but also v important to say she must behave however dull things are. IME, it ALWAYS works better to do sideways stretching at home rather than ask the school to do it. There are so MANY drawbacks to the latter - peer alienation, teacher resentment.

Languages also sound like a good idea. Most kids like the Cambridge Latin course, or maybe something with a non-Roman alphabet as that often appeals to maths kids.

No need to push with any of this, of course. Just offer it and see if she's keen.

[tomkitten]

Would it help to encourage your dd to articulate what she would enjoy doing in Maths and encourage her to talk to the teacher herself?

I have a dd the same age as yours and when she has issues at school with the work being "too easy" - or any other issues - I have always encouraged her to discuss it herself. I will go with her as support if she feels she needs is - as she is sometimes a little shy of new teachers - but I encourage her to take the lead. It has worked well and I feel less like a pushy / critical parent.

[tomkitten]

JL - isn't Kumon a bit repetitive for the more mathematically able? I understood it was hundreds and hundreds of worksheets.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

I am not too bad at maths. (dh also not bad; did physics at Cambridge) its just how to extend from such a basic level?

I did look at kumon, her reception teacher recommended it but I don't think she would enjoy it. Thanks for the idea though

I've thought about doing something in latin (though languages are very very not my strong point ) I'll look into the cambridge latin. I bet she'd like something with a different alphabet too as she loves code breaking.

I'm sure that many of you will feel frustrated. as I do. I really really wish I didn't have to think about stretching her, I wish that that sort of learning could be done at school so that when shes at home she could just get on and play.

She enjoys doing academic-y things at home but I think that bright kids really need to be encouraged just to play and hang about and just to be kids.

tomkitten - thats a good idea, I've been wondering if I should bring dd into the meeting with me.

[ProfessorGrammaticus]

I've never taken DS into these sorts of meetings - I haven't wanted to give him the impression that he is any kind of precious genius and I thought it would be hard to speak to the teacher openly if he was there.

I struggle to know how to stretch him and also how to find the necessary time within busy family life. He does guitar and will start theory of music in September. He gets extension work in maths lessons. That's about it, really - it doesn't sound enough when I put it like that!

But he also does cubs, cricket, swimmimg, reads loads and plays Pokemon much more than I would like. And we have two children. And I work part time. And I'm a big believer in letting the kids be bored sometimes. So where on earth do I fit in an interesting project on WW2 or whatever? Or find time to search out tricky maths problems for him?

[snorkle]

If she likes the horrible science books look out for the murderous maths ones. Similar format, but maths (obviously!). Ds used to get them out of the library until I bought him a set cheaply from somewhere - he taught himself allsorts from them right through to algebra and trigonometry. It does mean that he seldom (never?) meets anything new in maths lessons though.

I wouldn't have thought kumon was that great for a child that picks things up so fast, but ds does have a mathematical friend who did it right to the top level (I think) at primary school and enjoyed it. Piffle's son also did it for a while I think.

[FluffyMummy123]

Message withdrawn

[backfire]

nrich.maths.org is an excellent site which your dd might enjoy.

[cory]

If she'd like a different alphabet, then ancient Greek might be the way to go.

Or if she's interested in music, can you get anyone to come round and teach her composing? My brother started teaching his ds to compose when he was about 8 or 9 and he has written duets which they have performed together. It's a very mathematical way of thinking, I believe.

[Kammy]

Slightly off the maths topic, but have you thought of starting your dd on a musical instrument like PG's ds? Lots of people who are good at maths enjoy the decodings and patterns involved, plus its social and might use up a bit of excess brain space?

[tomkitten]

PG ? interested that you wouldn?t take your ds along. In dd?s school the children are even encouraged to go to parents evening in KS2 (which admittedly does make it tricky to be frank).

I think it is always better coming from the child rather than the parents, and gives the child some control over their education. I think it is easier for them to deal with short periods of boredom / frustration if they feel more engaged ? assuming they are the sort of child who wants to learn.

But then I am a mean Mummy who even made my dd do her own talking in reception when she was unimpressed with books with no words!

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

Prof - I know what you mean, I don't want her thinking she is anything special

snorkle - I'll have to look out for those books.

cod - I think I've already fallen foul of that with the long division. Must look up how things are taught for when she asks.

nrich - brilliant site - thank you!

cory - I'm not sure I know anyone who'd do it for free and her life is already rather expensive with riding (and now flipping judo). But what a fab your brother could do for his ds. Ancient greek - blimey!

Kammy - she does violin (with which she is distinctly untalented ) and recorder. She does enjoy both even though she gets very frustrated with how her violin playing sounds. I can't help her as I can't even tune the bloody thing properly.

[procrastinatingparent]

I don't know if my experiences will help you but anyway ...

In Yr 3 DS was sent to do Maths with Yr 5, with he loved, but his Yr 4 teacher was a huge believer in mixed ability teaching so he was kept with his own class from then on. Now in Yr 5 he is bored in Maths (partly from having covered some of it before) and also I think he has coasted for so long he now is not so far ahead of the rest of the class. I know it makes things easier for the teachers but I feel sad that he has lost his intellectually exploring edge when it comes to thinking mathematically. I really wish the school had been prepared to think outside the box and really extend him but we've had to do that at home (he does 2 instruments, just taken his grade 5 exams). The school has been prepared to let us have him at home one day a week to do other work (Latin, critical thinking, French, Maths and English), which has been great.

I guess I was very enthusiastic about him being sent to another year group (it happened in Reception, Year 1 and he had separate work in Yr 2) but it would have had other difficulties if it had continued - not least of which is that if they had kept extending him they would have had to find 2 years of Maths teaching after Yr 4, which I appreciate is a big issue.

If I could do it again, I still would agree to him being moved up but I would make them commit to a plan of action in Yr 3 for when he finished the Yr 6 work so that the teachers in the following years couldn't scupper it. I don't think they would have agreed but I would have had a go.

HTH!

[DefinitelyNotMARINAWheeler]

Agree with music, a language (Latin is offered at the dc's school, by...me...as it happens , but even I as a mere parent volunteer can see how much children of all abilities enjoy it...with the brightest ones really making progress) - but I would ask the teacher for a view on what differentiated work the school can now offer your dd for maths in the classroom.
Ds was offered differentiated work from Yr 4 - he's one of several, which helps - after he was commenting regularly at the end of Yr 3 that his maths was boring.
You may find the school is ahead of the game on this - I hope so.
We didn't discuss the whole G & T thing with ds, he knows he's bright and we don't like the label and its connotations.
I would keep emphasising everyone is different, difference is fine, we all have talents, line. You may also find that in Year 4 the teasing dies away, ds certainly did. They grow up such a lot around now.
As well as the website enid mentioned, the Telegraph's Grid Club has all sorts of educational puzzles and games. Well worth the modest annual sub.
Or as you are both boffins why not look out the University of Kent at Canterbury Greenfoot project, a fab opportunity to teach an interested child proper Java programming. There were two articles about this initiative in PC Pro last year.

[tomkitten]

hmmm?encouraging your child to talk to the teacher ? either with or without you - is not about talking to your child about being ?G&T? (whatever that may mean) or even ?clever?. It is about encouraging your child to talk to his/her teacher about what the fact that they find the maths (or spellings or reading etc.) unchallenging and to articulate what they would like to do about it (eg extending it along the lines of badkitten?s dd?s homework ? or perhaps they are particularly interested in say binary numbers, or graphs, or fun sequences). Don?t think of it as taking your child to your meeting with the teacher but (if your child needs you), going with your child to you child?s meeting with the teacher. You might want a separate meeting with the teacher without child if you need to be frank ? but I still think it is important to encourage your child to talk to the teacher themselves.