Is it a myth? Intelligence and sleep

[flimflammum]

Was/is your intelligent child a poor sleeper, at least in the daytime? My DS (age 2 and a half, but with language skills of a 4yo and very good visual recognition and memory) never slept easily in the daytime, though gentle sleep training sorted his night sleeping out. Now DD (3 months), despite my best efforts with routine etc, will only sleep for 45 mins at a time in the day. People always remarked on how 'alert' DS was when he was a baby, and I'm getting the same comments with DD. What's your experience?

[WendyWeber]

FWIW all my kids have been very good sleepers, but are of above average intelligence; and DS2, who was a very late talker (spoken vocabulary of about 20 words at 2½ ) is extremely intelligent and (at 14) gifted in English

I think it's true that the very alert ones probably are generally more intelligent than average - which is a comfort when they are doing your head in because you don't get a break from the dear things; but it's not the only factor

[roisin]

I've never heard that before.
It doesn't match my experience of my own children or other close friends with a mixture of good/bad sleepers.

I agree with WendyWeber on the alert thing though.

[funnyhaha]

I THINK there is some research that bears this out - as a general statistical trend (rather than an all crap sleepers = geniuses)
My dad ( a child psychologist) reckons it's true (but then he had 4 rubbish sleepers, so he may be biased )

[cornsilk]

How interesting, I've never heard this argument before. Would definitely agree with the alert theory.

[cory]

Hard to know while your children are little how intelligent they'll turn out to be, but dd who is in top set in all graded subjects was a good sleeper and still needs a lot of sleep, while ds who is in bottom sets and struggles academically can get by on very little sleep.

The person I have known in life who could get by on the least amount of sleep was an academic and no doubt very intelligent, but also totally disorganised and never finished his PhD. The brilliant careers went to people with fairly normal sleep habits.

[PaulaYatesBiggestFan]

no i truly dont believe it

maybe a child will talk earlier if it never sleeeps but its a bit chicken and egg is it not?

i never go for this reading/speaking age thing

my children could all read at a ridiculous reading age like 16 or something when they were 8 - i just do not buy it

plus the einstein thing kind of blows a lot of this out of the water

[cornsilk]

What do you mean by the Einstein thing?

[kid]

DD sleeps until very late in the mornings (but finds it difficult to go to sleep at night, she is working below the expected level for her age.
DS is an early riser, but fall asleep very easily at night and is working above his expected age level.

[Scampmum]

Mum said this was a rumour around when we were born, and that there was a consequent rush of middle-class parents deliberately waking their kids up at night to make them more intelligent!

I would imagine that if there is a statistically significant link it's a data set with incredibly wide dispersion, i.e. a trend with massive standard deviation - I very much doubt you could decisively infer anything about a specific child from it.

[cornsilk]

Kid that's like my ds's, but ds1 (who works below his age) actually has a cognitive ability on the 97th centile.

[popsycal]

I think 'they' just tell us this to make us feel better

If not, then ds2 ought to be up for his first Nobel Peace prize very soon

[chankins]

None of my dc have slept much in the day, (I wouldn't say any are gifted, but all ahead of their milestones etc) Even as newborns they rarely went down for more than half an hour at a time. Ds is 9 mo now and has maybe 2 half hour naps, but sometimes only 10 mins, and he has been this way since birth. People have said how alert they all are too, as newborns. I noticed a lot of newborns are constantly asleep at toddler groups for example, in their car seat or pram, and I would hardly see them until about 3 mo old, but mine never wanted to miss out on a thing and I could never put them down !
Like I say, not gifted or talented, but this is a n interesting topic. Have always been amazed that other peoples kids nap for hours in the day.

[southeastastra]

my ds(14) was a pita baby, he was awake most nights. he's very gifted now

[FourPlusOne]

DS has always been bad at napping and hasn't done so since v young. Sleeps well at night. Is of pretty average intelligence I think and was also late to speak . Have never heard this theory before - maybe he will unveil his genius tendencies at a later age!

[FourPlusOne]

On the other hand my DD (18) months sleeps all night, has 2 long naps a day, and is much more alert and communicative than my DS ever was at this age.

[funnyhaha]

Googling finds one paper against www.clickpress.com/releases/Detailed/18039005cp.shtml (but it was in the 1920s, & on children rather than babies) - I suspect that any corralation would be stronger in young babies....

[CantSleepWontSleep]

Oh it's definitely true .

[suzi2]

I investigated this a lot when DS was a bad sleeper. He's fairly bright I would say (aged 2.5) but is a little behind with talking. DD is a horrendous sleeper (just turned 1) but is quite far ahead so far.

What I did read was that babies who were bad sleepers spent more time awake so had more time to practice and learn and were often ahead because of this. But I think that only counts for the 6 months or so.

[southeastastra]

my neice too is very alert and aware, i'd rather say that than g&t. she was a pita baby too. first borns?

[WendyWeber]

cornsilk, the Einstein thing is that he reportedly didn't speak at all until he was about 3(?) Also Winston Churchill was painfully slow at school, and there are other examples of slow starters who went on to outstanding acheievements.

Basically I think the message is: all children develop at their own rate so don't read anything into their early/late talents

[PaulaYatesBiggestFan]

my children sleep a LOT

like take hem to the doctors a lot

esp when babies.

i dont think this argument is true... not sure about the gifted thing but ds1 (the one i took to gp) is in gcse year - doing 12 - already got 1 a* last year.predicted v well

one of his teachers says he is the brightest pupil he has ever taught

he did not walk talk read or write early, he was youngest in his year and bottom group for a couple of years

he slept late and bloomed late

i have seen a lot of quick babies slow down

[PaulaYatesBiggestFan]

( by take ten=m to docs i mean as a young mum many friends told me it was not right my children slept soo long so i took them to gp to check)

[arionater]

My mother believes this! But I suspect it's partly something friends/grandparents say to console parents with nightmare non-sleeping children. My parents regularly resorted to administering unnecessary cough medicine to knock me out (!) - I still find it hard to switch off at night and definitely have had to 'learn' how to wind down bit by bit. It is one of the things described by some theories of 'over-sensitivities' associated with giftedness - perhaps because it can go with being very 'alert' as mentioned by others - but I wouldn't set too much store by it on its own.

[PaulaYatesBiggestFan]

this is an excellent text on the subject

[roisin]

When I was at Uni there was a student in the year below who was of the scary-genius-gifted type. She had some kind of disorder that meant she was not able to sleep more than 4 hrs in every 24, and frequently much less; and she found it extremely hard to rest either.

It was very serious though, and had a major impact on her life-expectancy.