GCSE maths at 11

[marialuisa]

I'd be interested to know how you'd feel if you were told that your child had the potential/ability to pass GCSE maths in Y7. Would you say "go for it" or would you just say "that's nice" and leave it?

[frogs]

the latter. I would then also be asking how they planned to keep her interested and challenged until Y11.

[Hallgerda]

Agree with frogs.

(I'd also wonder whether the GCSE was worth the paper it was written on, but that's another matter...)

[flamingtoaster]

One thing to consider is that Universities (assuming you don't intend your child to go at 14!) like GCSEs and - more importantly A levels, to have been taken just prior to entry (so that they know what curriculum their intake has followed). However, with the current upheaval in exams that's probably not going to be relevant! My only concern would be that taking a GCSE in Year 7 might make your child more likely to get teased etc. (sadly it still does happen). My DS could have taken GCSE Maths in Year 7 but we decided not to and he took all his exams at the same time as his peers. He is now blissfully happy at Cambridge - but I don't think he would have coped with the workload so well (or relished the intellectual challenges and thrown himself in quite so deeply) and enjoyed the social life as much if he'd gone even one year sooner.

The most important thing is to make sure that your chiild's Maths can progress for the next six years of secondary education - probably by going "sideways" into areas they usually wouldn't cover.

[frogs]

FWIW, I'm guessing that most of Y7 or 8 who are in the top set for maths in a selective school could probably be taught to pass GCSE without too much pain.

But what's the point? Even if the school has a fantastic masterplan of enriching and sophisticated mathematical activities to keep the child happy in Y8-11 (which is unlikely, frankly) I still can't see any advantage in doing GCSE first. Why not have 4-5 years of enriching and sophisticated mathematical activities, and then walk the GCSE in Y10 or 11?

This whole advancement thing is a smokescreen IMO.

[Vacua]

I'd say no, for reasons above and from own experience of being too young emotionally for higher education - although think O levels were easier than GCSEs in terms of not having vast amounts of coursework to do

[GetOrfMoiLand]

totally agree with frogs. I would see no advantage in taking the exam this early, I think it would just end up being something that the school could 'list' as one of its G&T provisions.

[silverbirch]

Many eons ago at the grammar school I attended we were all expected to do one of our ?O? levels early. Consequently I didn?t get an ?A?. It was the only one where I failed to get an ?A?.

If it were my child I would feel chuffed that they were doing so well, make sure they continued to be stretched with Maths and did all the fun things that aren?t included in GCSE, and then let them take GCSE later when it will be easy peasy lemon squeezy and they would do spectacularly well!

[marialuisa]

Thanks for the responses. I agree BTW but have had conversations with people who don't.

I gave up a job a Uni Admissions Tutor role(Med/Vet Med) in November and have to say that we just used GCSEs as a first cut (i.e. do they have 5 As including maths and English, if no, bin) rather than worrying about when they were taken though!

[snorkle]

If a child wants to do maths at university then they don't like there to have been a break when said child hasn't been doing maths as apparently maths can go 'off the boil' if you stop doing it. This means that most maths students don't take a gap year and those that do are encouraged to keep their maths going somehow. So I agree, doing public exams early could cause difficulties IF they want to go on to study maths (which shouldn't really be ruled out if they're that good at it so young). But it is a shame that the maths exam structure in this country isn't geared to challenge our talented mathematicians.

[flamingtoaster]

There is a mechanism for challenging young mathematicians: www.mathcomp.leeds.ac.uk/ I'm sure marialuisa's school will be entering her child if he is already so far ahead. It's a great scheme - really does challenge them!

[snorkle]

It's a fun thing to do flamingtoaster, but it's just once a year. It only gives challenge for a couple of weeks really.

[flamingtoaster]

snorkle - I agree the Maths Challenge is a short term thing, and I wasn't suggesting it as a solution throughout the year for stretching mathematicians. However, while they are doing it it takes them into ways of thinking so far outside how they normally think it is invaluable, and there is a beneficial carry over afterwards.

[Acinonyx]

For me it would depend how my dc was reacting to his curent calss progress. I would agree to it if he really seemed to feel the need to go a lot faster but of course there would have to be something worthwhile in place.

FWIW this is my experience. I took maths early and was only allowedd to do so because I was absoutely certain to get 95-100% in a very short time. There was no discussion - and I had no idea what would happen next - I actually thought I would have a free class.

So then I started calculus with, apperently, the plan to do double math along side my other A levels. Well, although the GCSE was a walk in the park (when maths comes easy it is REALLY easy - that's the problem with math in this situation) i just didn't take to calculus for some reason and then just suddenly decided I hated maths and dropped it completely. I carried that distaste through my degree (where I went for breakfast while claculus was being taught - still passed though) and beyond.

Roll on 20 years (no kidding) and I am now doing a PhD which (unexpectedly) relies heavily on advanced maths and it's clear I really am unusually good at it after all. Something went wrong after school GCSE (I think it just wasn't easy enough) and I really thought I had hit my limit but that is totally not true and i can't help but wonder if it would have been better to let things be - or do it differently somehow.

I really don't know to this day what would have been the ideal strategy just soemthing to consider.

[Sciolist]

DS is doing the Intermediate Maths Challenge tomorrow. Last night he asked me to look at the questions he could not do from a previous paper. I think the gap of 30 years since I last did serious maths was a hindrance, but I could do some of them

[Reggiee]

Agree with frogs too.

The UK Maths Trust who run the maths challenges also run mentoring schemes for gifted mathematicians. May be worth a look?

[kritur]

Unless the child is going to get an A* then I would say that it would be a bad thing. In the future if they are aiming at Oxbridge then it could blot an otherwise perfect record. Resits don't look great either. I would suggest getting in touch with the school and speaking to them about what they can do to meet the childs needs. Advancement shouldn't be the only option for them.

[arionater]

Scholarship level at common entrance (taken in year 8) is notoriously harder than GCSE in several subjects, so I'm sure it's plausible he could do very well. I agree that the issue is more what else the school are planning to do with him to keep him interested. I did GCSE maths a couple of years early (top set + running a year young) and then we moved on to AS level stuff (calculus etc) and suddenly I went from thinking I was OK-but-not-great at maths to being really interested and excited, and much better than most of my peers, it was so much more interesting. Unfortunately it was too late by then as my A-levels were already chosen, but I still regret not having that realisation earlier. I don't think that's an argument for doing the GCSE this year necessarily, but definitely one for making sure that he gets a chance to see how interesting it can be before he gets bored.

[avenanap]

I looked at some GCSE maths and english workbooks in Waterstones with my ds today. He could answer most of the questions and he's 8. I wouldn't let him do the exams though, It's too much pressure and where would he go from there? It's all confusing but I would try and extend his learning by looking at other areas of maths that is not on the curriculum.

[SueW]

The school DD is moving to next year offers some children the option of doing GCSE maths early. Can't say I'm up for it if they offer it to DD - what do they do with the children for the next 4 years?!

I expressed that view at the school gate though and it wasn't very popular.

The school does iGCSE at 16 so maybe they offer GCSE and 11 and spend the next 5 years studying for iGCSE?

[SueW]

Acinonyx I, along with others in my year, also took maths (O-level!) early, but only six months early.

We started some advanced maths - I can't remember disliking it and I went on to do A-level maths but switched schools and loathed maths at the new place. No idea if that was because of teaching style, classroom atmosphere (more people messing about) or subject matter. I went from there to a management training programme which involved taking professional exams and hated the accountancy part of that too.

At that point I began to wonder what had happened to the maths I once loved so much.

[cory]

I agree with avenap, I'd try to extend learning sideways, in other areas. E.g I was to thought to have great potential in languages when I was at secondary, so my parents got a tutor to teach me an extra language (German) that couldn't be fitted into the school curriculum. Much more beneficial to my later career, than just getting through French quicker. And even learning French on a level that was too basic meant I was keeping the language alive.

I agree with everybody else:

child would not only need to be thought capable of doing early GCSE, but virtually guaranteed to get an A*, otherwise it's a big risk

you would need to feel that the decision was for the good of the child, rather than the school being able to boast that 'we've got 12yos doing GCSEs'

there would need to be a plan of how to sustain child's interest and continued progress after GCSE

[SueW]

DD - Y6 - has just done the foundation paper GCSE on BBC bitesize - at her request cos she's been reading mumsnet over my shoulder and saw this thread.

40 mins into a 1h30 paper she was fed up, had looked at every question and filled in what she could. She scored 66% (although their marking scheme is crap, tbh). Based just on what she has learned at primary school so far.

How does that work then? I wasn't even aware there were 'foundation' and 'higher' papers. Is that like CSE and O level in old money?

[Acinonyx]

Interesting how different our experiences of doing early maths exams have been. It seems to me now, that maths has subdisciplines which are quite different in their appeal and are not necessarily interchangable and equally motivating just because someone is very good at maths in general.

Sue - you just missed your true maths vocation

[kritur]

Foundation GCSE papers are for grades C-G (some subjects you can get something called an exceptional B). Higher GCSE papers are for grades A*-C (sometimes D). The standard of GCSE maths has slipped a lot in the last few years and I don't think it has done anyone any favours, particularly the more gifted children. The IGCSE is a much better course, particularly as a basis for A-level.