Are these really G&T levels?

[teeththief]

I know my children are 'switched on'. They do well...DS without seeming to put any effort in, DD has to work at numeracy but finds literacy 'easy'.

We were told at a recent parents' evening that DS (y4) is a 5b in maths and a 4a in reading and writing.

DD (y2) is a 3b in maths and a 3a in reading and writing.

I have looked at the charts Google throws up but after looking around on MN it seems like this is just 'normal' these days. I'm guessing my DC are 'G&T' based on their school but is it 'normal' throughout the country?

I'm posting this in a genuinely interested way!

[Owllady]

It depends what school I think. My yr 7 boy was 8a in maths at the beginning of yr 7 which is unusual but he isn't a genius. If that helps
I never normally post here

[teeththief]

LOL owllady I don't usually post either. I was just puzzling it out. Do you know what level your DS was in y4 in maths? An 8a in year 7 is amazing! Is that as high as it goes?

[morethanpotatoprints]

Hello OP, I'm not sure really.
They are really good and beyond what I know from levels here.
I would say G&T but this is Mnet, you'll be told this is normal.
They are so lucky it comes easy to them.

[Owllady]

Yr 4... God knows :o I know he has always been v high for maths. Not so much fir other subjects. He is like his father

[teeththief]

morethanpotatoprints that's why I posted here. I thought I'd get some honest opinions. Although, TBH, I don't know what I would do with the replies. The fact that their school has identified them as G&T is fantastic, but they don't actually get any 'help' with it.

owllady My DH is the maths geek in our house too, I have no idea what him and DS are talking about half of the time

[twothousandandfourteen]

afaik the gifted and talented hieÃ? to a certain % in a year, the top 10% i believe, so it could be correct depending on the other pupils. have you compared the schools results to the national average? the ofsted data dashboard is good for comparisons

[simpson]

Well I don't know if this helps but DS is in yr4 and there aren't any kids at that level in his class. Although in fairness he has had a rough year so not much progression really due to poor teaching all year

The highest is around a 4B/C (the kids are told their own levels).

DD is in yr1 and will probably be on the same levels as your youngest when in yr2 (although not the maths, very strong in reading/literacy and history atm).

Both my DC are G&T (but not in everything). DS (yr4 is in reading &maths and DD yr1 in reading & literacy).

[Effic]

Officially schools have to designate the top 10% of their children as g&t AND PLAN EXTRA PROVISION FOR THEM! So they should be getting extra not nothing. This top could be miles above average nationally or below - it's measured against their school peers.
Nationally - two 'full' levels above their age related expectations in juniors would be gifted and they would be up there with the top 10% ish. Bit harder to quantify in infants.
So for year 4 - age related level is 3B so 5B in maths is g&t. Reading and writing v v good but probably not quite.
Year 3 - age related expectations 2B so she's doing really well to be at the top of level 3 and would be classed as g&t.
More importantly, you need to ensure that the school is providing for them before they get bored and loose motivation.

[dalziel1]

I think those are very good levels for year 4! Sure its not an indication that he is a genius of Einstein proportions, but those levels are very good indeed!

The Y2 ones are very good too.

What amazes me most though is that the school lets them get that high! Is it a normal state primary?

[MumTryingHerBest]

My DSs infant school didn't use SATs to identify G&T as they don't assess higher than level 3 at the end of year 2. I think any G&T children in the infant school are identified using a range of assessments.

At the start of yr3 in the junior school, G&T is identified using SATs and every year thereafter. I'm not sure what level they needed to be but my DS was 4b for maths and 4a for English and was classed G&T.

I've not idea what level he is now but he is in year 4. The teacher told him four weeks ago that they felt he was not being challenged and are now giving him work for the next level up from the top maths group. There is one other boy doing the same work as him.

He is top group for English and spelling and gets extra literacy.

Just to add, I have never given him anything more than the homework set by the school and he spends most of his free time playing Minecraft on his xbox or at various after school clubs. Others may see me as a bad mum but to be honest this is his childhood and I've not intentions of turning it into a full time learning exercise.

[exexpat]

This chart might be helpful: National Curriculum Expectations.

So according to that, level 3a/b in year 2 is above expected levels of attainment, but still on the chart; likewise level 4 in year 4, but level 5 in year 4 is off their chart. I would say that definitely puts both your DCs in the more able/G&T range, but of course, as others have said, exactly what criteria each school uses to make up a list (if they even have a list) will vary, and so some children who would be 'G&T' at one school would not at another. But they are definitely doing well. Are they happy and being challenged at school?

[teeththief]

Yes they are both very happy at school which is always my main concern. DD will sometimes come home and say something was boring but that isn't very often.

It is a normal state primary dalziel1. I don't understand your comment about school 'letting' them get to those levels?

[Lonecatwithkitten]

Cohort has a lot to do with it. My DD is in a particularly able group for maths over 40% of her year group got a level 5c in year 4. The school says that having such an able groups self fuels faster movement forward.

[nonicknameseemsavailable]

I think dalziel1 means that many state schools won't actually teach them enough in advance for a child to achieve that level at that age if that makes sense.

[dalziel1]

Yes, that's what I mean. Also, if the children happen to know the material and skills that would put them at a very high level (maybe they learned at home), then the schools will not give them the opportunity to prove that they know it. So they mark them at a lower level and then later "teach" them, so that a year or two later the school can demonstrate "progress".

Last year DS1. as he entered year 6 was marked down three sub-levels in Reading. Year 6 is a busy year for the class teacher as she struggles to get as many level 3 children as she can up to a level 4 in time for the SATS (which are this week each year).

So, DS1's teacher decided that the Y5 teacher's assessment was incorrect and marked Ds down. However, she told me that she was certain that with effort, he could get back to where he had been. Then she didn't really focus on the top set children all year, but amazingly he got the good result she had predicted in the SATS, and now he's in the top ste at secondary.

Its just a game of lies and statistics! (and selective blindness!)

[nonicknameseemsavailable]

yes exactly - they don't assess things they haven't taught them so they therefore can't demonstrate it if they have managed to learn it.

[teeththief]

daziel that's awful!!

Our school is very flexible in that they move children around during maths and literacy. DS goes to year 6 for numeracy which I guess is how they were able to assess him higher than some schools? DD also goes to a higher year for some lessons

[HolidayCriminal]

Define what "normal" is supposed to mean, then I could answer OP's original questions.
5b at end of yr4 is quite unusual. Does normal mean "usual"?
Or does normal mean a wide spectrum of usual ability (5b at end of yr4 is probably still on the long tail outside usual ability).
Or does normal just mean "not freaky"?

[Martorana]

Daziel- if it happened exactly like that, don't worry- they'll get their comeuppance when OFSTED visit.

[InMySpareTime]

DD's school doesn't quite understand what the top 10% of the class means. They identified 10 DCs from Y5 (class of 35) to go on a G&T workshop. could have something to do with the fact it was a Saturday workshop, paid for by parents
DD has been coasting at school, there seems to be no G&T provision.
DS is doing very well at secondary, they are great at motivating him, increasing the depth and breadth of his knowledge. He's gone up 2 levels this year in maths alone.

[dalziel1]

Ofsted are due next year, by which time DS1 will be in year 8 or even 9 at secondary. Will they look back to the experience of children who left in 2013?

[iseenodust]

As a non-expert I think your DS's maths sounds very advanced.
A level 3 in year 2 SATs is relatively common. If I'm right they have to be a 3b to score the official 3. In DS's year2 SATs 6 pupils in a class of 24 got 3's in maths. A good village school but not rated outstanding and not all those 6 were considered G&T (because if 10% would be 2 labelled?).